The Word of What Now? Why Mormons Can't Drink Coffee.

0:21 Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm Mel. And I'm. Claire and together we are. The salty hoes. So today we're going to get into some fun Mormon dietary practices. But before we get into that, let's check in. Claire, how was your week? It was pretty good. It was not bad. And I believe we had a a common a common occurrence this week. Oh, are you talking about the day spa? Yes. Oh my God, I got Paulina. We got Paulina. It was divine as always. Always, always. Oh my gosh, it's always a treat to go see our We Paulina. What did you get done the? Usual. The usual. Well, I actually added in a a mini glow and go, glow and go. I can't say that.

1:06 Glow and go facial, yes I did that too this week. I swelled. Oh my. God, my God. And we, we have to, we have to point something out because we have both gotten this facial for like quite some time over the years. Yeah. And all of her products smell amazing, but they they smelled extra amazing this time and girl came out with a whole brand. I know, and she's been holding out on us. So Paulina, girl, you got to promote yourself more. Your stuff is amazing and I didn't even know it was yours. I had no idea because when she was doing it, I was like, Oh my God, that smell, what is that? And she's like, oh, it's like a, it's like a drink of water for your face. And it does this and this, but like it's like, girl, what was that?

1:53 And she never identified that it is her own formula, her own line of skin care with this most magnificent packaging. And oh, it's. So beautiful, yes it's so posh and lux like the products are amazing but like the packaging is so cool too. It's so cute, the wee pictures and the the wee bags and yeah. She's so sweet, it's like we had to like deploy wild horses to get out of her. But she has launched her own skin, which is amazing. That is the best description I've ever heard, but it's so accurate. It's like cruel. Just tell us, which, you know, I don't think we need to point out that we're, we're not saying this from prompting from her, but we're just like, girl needs to shout out like she has this magical Kingdom on 9th and 9th in Salt Lake City and everybody needs to go. Yeah.

2:46 Go check it out. So spa day at 9th and 9th is her place and the her brand is called Moonshine versus Milk so. Amazing. And give it a try. It's so good. And yeah, we pointed out in our Utah Beauty Standards episode that, you know, you and I are a little challenged in this area. What do you mean in terms of like we we missed that gene in terms of like, you know, honing in on the well, what do we need to do or, you know, and Paulina has helped us. Yeah, I. Feel like there's a developmental psychology angle here. Like, are you familiar with this idea? I'm sure you are like the critical period, right, of development where?

3:27 Oh, yeah, yeah. Like if you don't develop language by a certain age, you're never really going to develop it. I feel like we miss the window for beauty standards. Like when the teens were experimenting, I just didn't like, let's make up. Yes, what is that stuff? Or yeah, we we did And and Paulina is helping retrain us. I know. We're doing like remedial, like beauty standards, not even 101 like. 98 like, not even intro. Yeah, we're not even ready for intro too. We're just, yeah, well, I got a big compliment from my son this morning. So because in addition to my facial, I got the the brows and the the eyelash. Stuff.

4:09 Oh, they look so. Good. Oh thank you as like always, that's my little thing I get from her and shout out to my son. I'm very proud. He finally got his certificate in the mail for his associates. So oh, wow. You know, before we came to record, I ran up and I was like, son, son, it's here. Like I'm so pride. And I like cried a little because I'm a weirdo that way. And I was. Like I'm so pride if. You like and he says, mom, you can't cry. You're about to go out to do the podcast and he's like, you're gonna ruin your makeup. And I was like, son, I don't wear makeup. And he was like, but you've got your eye stuff on. I was like, no, I just got Pauline. And he was like, oh, that looks really good. Like, and this isn't like a a 24 year old like male who was like don't cry.

4:56 You're going to mess your makeup so. Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest, I was actually shocked too. And I found out you didn't wear eye makeup. I just thought you had a lot of mascara on. And it's it's not which. Is incredible. I woke up like this girl. Like. Thank you, Paulina. I take no credit whatsoever, so I didn't even know such things existed. Right. So yeah, it's amazing, yeah. Anyway, we love Paulina. Sorry, I just made a gross noise into the microphone 'cause I was like going oh I did it again, I'm so sorry everyone just go see Paulina. Keep doing a little remix. It'll be funny. Just kidding. A gross noise remix? Yeah. Perfect. We love our girl, all right. Well, today we are going to get into some Mormon dietary practices.

5:42 Yeah. And I think this part of this comes from watching our girlies on the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Mm Hmm. Particularly their dirty soda addiction and. I think that's a fair word to use. Oh yeah. Like, we're not throwing shade. They would say it themselves. I mean, it, it's, it's a thing. And I feel like it was the precursor to that was like 64 oz Maverick jugs that people would fill on their way to work. Yes, my uncle used to do that. He would fill up a whole like 64 ounce of soda and then like to fill it halfway through the day. That. Wow I know I had many questions which I didn't ask him at the time but like how many times do you have to pee a day like. I know well and also I'm going to get a little gross here, but like are you burping constantly?

6:33 Like if I have any carbonation or even a beard like I feel like burpee super. Gassy. Right, yes. So like, are you just belching at work all? Day or does it come out the other end? Right. I don't. Like, Tell us. We'd love to know. Yeah, I don't. You don't drink soda. I do drink a little bit of soda. Not like a ton, right? Yeah, like one of those Diet Coke girlies. That's always. Drinking Diet Coke, but I will have. Them on occasion, yeah. My son really likes this diet root beer, so sometimes I'll drink that with him at home when we're just watching television or whatever. Yeah. And I did not bring him that question. I went. You don't drink soda, I should have said. Do you drink soda Well? 'Cause you never see me running around with Yeah, like I don't. You don't.

7:17 Have that much? You don't have a 64 oz Maverick. Habit. And I've never been to Swig or any of The Dirty soda places, but I guess we can get into that in a minute. Yeah, I have been there because my youngest child is a Mormon soda addict also, but lives in Chicago night and can't get access to the the Mormon soda. So when she comes home to visit, it's like, can we go get Mormon sodas? That's like the first question, Mormon. Sodas I like. That yeah. So I've actually had a it's signs. Disgusting. What is it called? It's a Doctor Pepper thing, but it's got like the most oh name. I'll have to think about that. It'll come to me in the in the middle. Of this episode. But perfect.

7:58 We're going to get back to The Dirty sodas. But living in Chicago, I feel like maybe, I mean, there's been so much Secret Life stuff coming out like in the last few weeks, but didn't Whitney Levitt just have a brand deal? I thought it was in Chicago. Was it or is it? Open a new dirty soda. It's like a place I've never heard of, but I feel like it's not here in Utah. Oh my God. Well, maybe it's in New York, I don't know. I know 'cause it's confusing night of the music, yes, yes. But hey, that, I mean, any little entrepreneurs out there? Let's go open dirty Soda in Chicago 'cause I feel like it would work anywhere night. I think it would kill. Mm hmm. Especially with all the exposure, yes.

8:40 Definitely. Let's do it. OK, well, side hustle, another side hustle for you. To add to your many, many successful business that's. Well, I don't know about that, but let's, let's, let's open it. I love it. I Let's do it. OK, All right. So should we get into this Mormon stuff? So a lot of people know that Mormons don't drink, they don't smoke. And I think the one that really trips people up the most is they don't drink coffee or tea. Yep, like do they drink herbal tea? Yes. OK. So we can get into that a little bit. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause it's a black tea situation, right? Yeah. Black, green, white tea. Oh, even green. Yeah, 'cause it all comes from the same plant, so it's like the tea leaves, like the true tea.

9:26 Yeah, is banned, but. The true Tea True Tea Church of the true Tea. I know let's like it's. The one true tea So. We need to start a counter cult I feel like. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, I think that would kill. The Church of the true Tea. The Church. Of the true tea. By Mellon Claire Amazing. Wow. OK, so where does all this come from? Well, I think you and I discovered in our research for this episode that it, it wasn't even like what we originally thought it was. So originally it was a revelation, February 27th, 1833 from Joseph Smith himself, who what would have been in like his 30s at that point.

10:09 I kind of never clocked that before either. Like dude was young, pretty. Young, right? Because I guess, I mean, I'm trying to remember the timeline because it's been a while, right? The first vision is when he's a teenager, but I feel like the timeline there is kind of sketch too, because there's like 4 or more different versions of different is in the difference in details. Yeah. So they might differ in time as well. And then he organizes the church. When 1830. Yeah, right. It's a rhyme den 'cause this is 1833 he gets this revelation. OK, so shortly thereafter. Yeah, so he's young, like he's secret lives of Mormon wives. Age group. Oh my God, that's such a funny way.

10:49 To put it that's so good. Like he is like Jace or Dakota, like, well, could you imagine them organizing? And I mean, it kind of makes a lot of sense, right? Because you might want to get up with the young girlies when you're. Well, that's a whole other episode. But yeah, I think it's. Probably way more charismatic and therefore maybe more dangerous than any of our team talk friends. Yeah, because good looking I've seen his death mask. Yeah, yeah, really good looking friend with like an insane amount of rizz apparently. Yeah, wow, Yeah, I love that rizz. I'm trying to rizz Anches, apparently. Sorry. Oh, my God. I still have some religious trauma sneaking in where I'm like, am I going to get strucked on for saying that? Did I just sinned?

11:35 I think I just sinned. Oh my God. Oh God, so. Funny. OK, sorry, back to the actual Word of Wisdom as it is called. Yes, the Word of Wisdom. Yes. So which is, you know, big claim with the 20 to 30 something with no scientific background knowledge. So it's recorded now as Section 89 of the Doctrine of Covenants, which is one of the additional scriptural books of the Mormons. And it wasn't until 18 years after that it was delivered as a talk by actually the patriarch of the church, John Smith.

12:16 And during this talk, apparently President Brigham Young arose from the crowd. He arose wrong. I think dude was arisen a lot with how many ladies he had going and but his different type of arisen proposed that All Saints formally convert or covenant. Sorry to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey specifically mentioned and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom. And that was 1852 and you came across another date fact. I was digging into this just a little bit for this episode, and it turns out that I, I mean, the way I learned it growing up was Joseph Smith had this revelation. And from then on, like the church just practiced these, you know, abstaining from tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco, etcetera.

13:15 Yeah. But it's actually a more complex story than that. So for actually many years, I would say a good 60 to 70 years after this happened, there was some pretty heterogeneous application of it. So, you know, they did kind of commit to it with Brigham Young. But a lot of early church leaders all the way up to the very beginning of the 1900s, including the apostles, including the prophets, some of them would drink tea and coffee. Didn't they consider it to be a big deal? Lots and lots of people in the church did. And also, you know, the prohibition on alcohol was sort of bodily applied, shall we say? Yeah. When The Pioneers came across the plains and established their little Kingdom, right? Fleeing the United States because of their deviant sexual practices.

14:03 Yeah. Then they were trying to establish this new land in Utah, OK, this new civilization. And part of that was cutting ties on being dependent on the East, right, on the United States. And so they tried to make or grow everything that they could here in Utah so they wouldn't have to purchase or trade for it. And some of the things that they did was start wineries and start beer breweries. Wow. Yeah. I mean, Brigham Young owned a bar in downtown Salt Lake for many years. Now. There was this idea that like OK, maybe the bar was for non Mormons that were passing through. Right, whatever. Might as well profit off it. But. The fact of the matter is is that even though the Word of Wisdom was a thing, it wasn't really universally applied until later in the church's history.

14:51 Beer wasn't even included at first, so people were drinking beer. It wasn't a thing. It was really just whiskey and spirits that were prohibited. Wine is mentioned, but they were still using that in the sacrament at that time. Oh my God, that would have been a lot more fun right than like the gross like tap water. Yeah, it's a tiny amount, but still, wine were still being consumed by by the Mormons. It turns out that even though it was sort of a prohibition, it wasn't really until 1915 that men who drink alcohol or use tobacco were no longer allowed to be ordained to the Mormon priesthood. Oh. My God, that's not that long ago. No.

15:33 Wow, this might shock. A lot of people are Mormon friends. It wasn't added as a requirement. This requirement to follow the word of wisdom for temple attendance. Until 1921 they didn't even ask, it was just an on your honor system or like it wasn't really important enough to be considered something they would ask for a temple recommend. Oh my God, my mind is blown here on many levels cause 11 little offshoot is like wow high very Jim Jones of them on the early settlement. Like let's be separate, let's grow everything like that's that is very cult like behavior. And yeah, also, can we ever be upset at Lisa Barlow again for owning a liquor like Brand given that Brigham Young owned a bar?

16:19 Girl, I was never upset at Lisa. You're like, yeah, but you know, like the, the shame that everybody gives her in the group or, or that we're like, Oh my God, these women drink. Like I never saw Mormonism like that. Like maybe it's always been like that. There was a weird middle phase and I they're bringing it back to it's. Coming back a little bit, but it seems like Mormon 2.0 is actually a thing and Lisa's like, I don't care. Like I'm Mormon. I turned, I own a tequila company. Who cares? Yeah. And it's it. It almost seems more aligned with the establishment of the church. I'm sure Lisa doesn't know this history. Well, maybe I'm selling her short. I don't think Lisa would be aware of this history. But you know what? What she's doing is in the grand old tradition of Mormonism, back in the.

17:01 Day it really is, only it's a girly leading the charge instead of a man with high over many wives. Yeah, so it's not even Mormonism 2.0, It's like Mormonism 0.5, right. Going back to the roots, yeah. Oh my God, I, I would argue that like, you just told me a lot of stuff I never knew and I was the Bishop's wife. Like, you know, it's. Not like they really talk about it. It's not like you go to church and they're like, And now for a nuanced history. Of the Word of Wisdom. Or there's like a Wii plaque on Main Street. This is the bar that Brigham, like Young owned. Like yeah, we should. Probably dig into that a little bit. And go there and have a a shot of whiskey. I bet it doesn't exist anymore, but maybe somebody's like resurrected it, yeah. Just knowing where it is, like what's their noise? Is it still a bar?

17:46 OK, We're going to, we're going to do our best academic research on that. Yeah, this will be a return and report situation. Yes, we will return and report for sure. Oh my God. I love it. Well, should we read through the actual scripture? Yeah, piece by piece and. Let's talk about it. Let's do it. OK, I love it. Do you have it up or shall I start? Reading. I start reading because I I have like and we can we can compare and contrast. I have like the verbiage from lds.org, so like the interpretation of it. So, but let's let's do a deep dive into the Doctrine and Covenants we're. Going to do a little close reading here. OK, so this is Doctrine and Covenant section 89, verse one quote a word of Wisdom for the benefit of the council of high priests assembled in Kirtland and the Church, and also the Saints and Zion.

18:38 Two, to be sent greeting not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of Wisdom showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of All Saints in the last days. Three given for a principle with promise adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of All Saints who are can be called Saints. Shade. Yeah, that's kind of shady. Yeah. Actually. For for you weak ass hoes like they're like wow. OK, so 4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, in consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men. In the last days I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation. 5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold, it is not good, neither me in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer your up your sacraments before him. 6 And behold, this should be wine. Yeah, pure wine of the grape, of the vine, of your own make. 7 And again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

19:41 All right, let's. Stop here and yeah. So this is the prohibition on alcohol? Mm hmm. And but are they saying there that it's still OK for the sacrament? Yes. Huh. Definitely, and I'm fairly sure that for quite a while they were using wine in the sacrament, similar to other Christian sects. Wow, yeah, a wee Mimosa shot at sacrament meeting. I like. It I that would have been fun. OK, so that's that's interesting because there's a little bit of shade in there and there's also like a an odd Armageddon or two reference in there too with all good Mormon things like the last days. Yeah. I mean, it was definitely a very millennial cult, right? I think in the early days of the church, it was pretty widely understood that Jesus was coming back and the world was going to end within the next decade or two. Yeah.

20:31 Or at least by 1900. That was pretty, pretty evident from like all the early writings in the church. He's a wee bit overdue a little bit. I know. Like, yeah, wow, that's that's a whole other episode. But yeah, we definitely need to do an episode on that. That used to scare the shit out of me. Like even as a grown ass adult, I I. Was like Jesus. Is going Oh my God, it's going to be this week and I don't I, I haven't purchased enough vacuum packed wheat from the church, right? 'Cause I'm going to haul it all the way back to Missouri, right? Like. I just like, I really internalized that and kind of like a rule follower and I was yeah, OK. OK, I love that. I do want to do a whole episode about the apocalypse. Like you have an understanding of that. But in terms of alcohol, so I kind of, it's interesting how they call out wine and strong drinks separately, but it's not mentioned.

21:24 So it does seem consistent that people were drinking beer all the way through the early 1900s. Well, and if Brother Brigham had a brewery and a bar at Main Street, like, yeah, yeah, the BBG system in command on the revenue stream. Exactly. Wow. But when you grew up, I'm sure like as me, it was, it was just like completely prohibited, like no. Blanket ban. Yeah, the banned ban even it was bad. Oh yeah, my God, I can't talk to them. Oh yes, that it. Well, it's funny because growing up in Ireland, too, people couldn't really comprehend of it. And they would say, oh, but you would have like, a wee drink of wine with it, like your Christmas dinner, right?

22:06 And you're like, no, like, we don't at all. And they're like, but like, if you were out or something, you'd have a wee glass of wine. And they're like, no. Like, they were grasping more the version of Mormonism we see now on, you know, Secret Lives and Real Housewives. But but yeah, it was just a blanket ban. Yeah, which isn't unique, right? Other religions prescribe alcohol. Right. Yeah. Yeah, like Muslims. Don't, don't drink alcohol, yeah. I mean, I'm sure some do. It's like a big, yeah, big religion. Just like Mormonism, Mormonisms so. Like, I don't want to like speak for that, but that's one religion that comes to mind that, you know, has approach to talking about. Alcohol. It's not unusual.

22:46 It's not too unusual. Yeah. And I mean, it kind of makes some sense. I would say it's pretty clear from a health perspective that alcohol is not good for you. Mm, Hmm. And that's kind of a full stop. Yeah, that that I mean some components of red wine or it's. Mostly been debunked. Though, Really. Yeah. So it's not that good for you? No, it's never been good for me. It's never. Been good for anyone? Yeah. Alcohol just period is not good for your health. Now that being said, do I enjoy it? You know. You know, there's a lot of things that we know are not good for our health and we all enjoy it. So in moderation it's all good. But I mean, yeah, I have not that I ever drank a lot, but I really barely drink it all night and even 1 drink will kind of knock me out.

23:34 Like I feel the inflammation effects, shall we say, of it, you know? So yeah, I feel that. Too, If I've had a few drinks, it definitely effects sleep, right? And it, I mean, alcohol is a mild carcinogen. So it does increase your risk of cancer, especially like mouth and throat cancers. So, you know, from a health perspective, I think that the data is pretty clear that alcohol is good for you. Now, in terms of a religious prescription, is that the reason that that's in this? I mean, the, the scripture kind of suggests that that might be the case a little bit later on. So maybe that's part of it. Yeah, we'll, we'll assume goodness here. Yeah. They're hoping that that we'll all be healthy and, and good and yeah, yeah. Cool stuff.

24:15 OK, So yeah, just going to kind of let that one go. I guess some Mormons I would say take this a little far. I mean. Shocker, right? Really. Wow. I know. Surprising that they would be extreme about anything. Yeah. So for example, I know that some won't take like liquid cold medicine because it's based, it's an alcohol based thing. Oh my God, Yeah. You know, you actually reminded me of something that I did. I thought I was being really noble when I lived in Ireland as a late teen, young adult. I used to love this Chinese take away dish and it was like chili chicken with white wine and something else.

24:59 It was really good. It was when I still at meat and I loved getting this. There's a, there's a whole thing around Chinese take away in Ireland, but that's, that's another story. And I love this. I am almost certain there was no actual wine in this dish. And also when you cook wine, the alcohol evaporates, right? So it's like it's just a flavour thing. So I stopped getting it. It would like when I was preparing for my temple marriage I was like thou shalt not eat of the chili chicken anymore. It was a self-imposed commandment. I want to be very clear like nobody in church told me, but I thought as I was like getting ready for the temple, I should eliminate chili chicken with white wine. You are so righteous.

25:47 I'm so righteous. I mean, I think that's a common theme we could probably come back to a couple of times like this point that some Mormons like to take things real far. Yeah. So they're like, oh, OK, here's the line. But I'm also going to like go way, way, way over the line and not eat like the chili chicken do. I got drink cold medicine even if I needed so. And it gets a little extreme when we get to the coffee and tea we're really going to dig into. That some more, yes. And like, that is still a, like a, a, a point of a lot of discussion. And I also feel like, you know, it's framed in righteousness, but I think a lot of people just had anxiety. Like when I look back, I think that's probably I really internalized and me, because I went to Catholic school too, that I would be immediately punished if I violated the rules.

26:36 And so I, I don't know that I was trying to be super righteous. I was just afraid and. Especially knowing you. Like, and I was just like, Oh my God, like God will smite me for the chili chicken and like I really hope that that he, she, they, whatever God is, was not concerning themselves with my chili chicken consumption. I mean, I think that's a pretty depressing view of God that you would care about your chili chicken consumption. And and that sent us like and and that you would also be. Like they would be the type of. Person that would punish you with like illness or something because you had it.

27:17 I mean, I think it's consistent with a lot of, you know, with the understanding of God. Yeah. Mormon church like they saw a lot of other stuff too, not dietary practices. It's just another one of those. Yeah, it's like a harsh, vengeful pushing God, or at least that's part of it, right? That's one strand that's pretty strong. Yeah. Yeah. I think that point about anxiety is really good. I think there's another. So this is an and it's not a buzz. There's another category of Mormons who use it as virtue signalling. 100. Percent like yes, OK, I can't do this, but I also won't do this because I'm. I'm so virtuous. Yes. It's like, you know, we get ranked in our profession as standard or exceeds and and standard is 100% fine, but you know, they want the exceeds category.

28:04 Yeah, I hate that. Yes, that's yeah, there. There definitely is that contingent for sure. OK, let's continue with to the next one. So I'll just read one verse here. So this is verse 8, section 89 again. And again, tobacco is not for the body neither for the belly. And it's not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all set cattle to be used with judgement and skill. Huh. OK, so no tobacco. Yeah. And back then I think it was a lot of that. I mean, there was smoking for sure, but also, like, chewing and spitting tobacco. And my understanding was that was part of what prompted this. Yes, but Joseph's wife got tired of cleaning the tobacco spit off the floor, which I can. Fair. That's completely fair. Gross.

28:45 Yeah. That's disgusting. I pick. Up your own spit. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe just don't in someone's house on the floor. Yeah. Are we cup or? Something something. My God, that's nasty. That's gross. Yeah, I heard that too, That that's what prompted the BB Jesus to tell Joseph Smith to stop it. Cut it out. Yeah. So like nothing on the. Floor. Yeah, like oh God, they had to specify that from on high, no less. What's the Kai thing? I'm not really sure actually. I feel like we've in our modern world, we've gotten a little far away from our means of food production. I don't know if tobacco is something that, I mean, clearly it was used in some capacity with cattle back then. I don't know if that's something that's still used or if that was just a weird folk remedy or what. Sorry, I didn't look that one up. No, veterinarian listeners let us know. Yeah, please.

29:36 Do you treat Kai's with tobacco still? I don't. Didn't mention. Were the bruises on the Kai or people? Didn't mention bruises. Am I inventing that? Yeah, no, you're not inventing that, it says an herb for bruises and all sick cattle. Huh. Bruises on a Kai? Can a Kai get bruises? I don't even know they can get bruises but it says bruises and all sick cattle but then it also says tobacco is not for the body so maybe bruises on not people. Kais, that's sounds real specific. When the Kaia gets a bruise you can use it, but otherwise that's so.

30:16 Weird. That's really weird. It sounds like probably something that's been debunked with my gas. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's an old timey veterinary thing, right? Wow, so interesting. I love dissecting it like this. I do too. This is fun actually. I also read that. So tobacco was used after this word of wisdom. It was used after the the Patriarch and the Brigham Young thing even by some Mormons. Not all, but certainly there was still people that smoke cigars, including Joseph Smith. He used to walk down the streets of not very smoking a cigar. Yeah, and. It is. What a hustler. Yeah, everybody. Was in there smoking cigars and stuff so again the riz. Oh my God. Well, and I'm going to draw in the gender component here because a lot of ladies don't smoke cigars. So I'm assuming that the men's was having a good time here. And so if when they're saying, well, not everybody lived it, in other words, the women were most likely living it. Now that's conjecture on my part, but I'm trying to read between the lines.

31:22 No, I think there's actually a really good point there because reading a little bit about this and how like spottily, if at all, it was applied in the 1800s, they did talk a lot about men drinking beer and using tobacco and women drinking coffee, although men would as well. But like the focus there, like the hot drinks focus was more on the ladies and the tobacco and alcohol focus was more on the men's. Interesting, huh? That's very interesting. Yeah, I'm not really sure what to make of it, but you definitely see that, like these old quotes, right? Yeah. Yeah. They called them out, like, in a gendered way. Yes. Wow. OK, so the men's was going to the bar, Yeah. Brigham's bar, Brigham's in.

32:04 And the ladies were just enjoying a wee nice cup of coffee in the morning by the signs of it, yeah. Wow, interesting, huh? I've I've. These things have never occurred to me previously. It's kind of cool to dive into the history a little. Bit, isn't it? Oh, I love this. Yeah, keep going. OK, well, I just wanted to say about tobacco, since we were talking about like health. Tobacco is definitely very unhealthy. OK, so smoking we all know is not good for you. There are many, many carcinogenic components in a cigarette or a cigar, vaping, etcetera. Like none of this is great. Tobacco use is a pretty leading cause of cancer worldwide. It's also linked to things like heart disease and stroke and other pulmonary diseases.

32:50 It's really pretty bad for every organ system. Yeah, OK, So that that's pretty clear. However, because biology is fucking messy, it's not a completely one sided story. So it turns out that nicotine specifically is actually neuroprotective. Oh wow. Yeah. So nicotine use and you kind of have to separate it out. You have to be taking like essentially just nicotine because, again, that stuff in tobacco is really bad. But nicotine actually is associated with a decreased risk of degenerative neurological diseases. So Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and other dementias, OK.

33:34 And there's a pretty clear inverse correlation between nicotine use and these neurodegenerative diseases. That's wild, yeah. And it's also possible, like there's a correlation with improved cognitive function and nicotine use. Oh my God, I need all the patches. I'm like, cover my body isn't that crazy. Get me some of those quitting patches. Wow. It turns out that it probably helps prevent plaque formation, like in Alzheimer's and some of these dementias I used to have when I was in my PhD, there was a professor that I took the class from, and I just kind of knew of it. He studied nicotine and nicotinic receptors, and he used to always say in class, he was like, everybody starts smoking when you're 60. Like, is that hilarious?

34:18 That is hilarious. He's. Like because it's good for your brain, but you don't want to start now. He's like, don't start too early because then you're going to get the lung. Cancer, yes, that's going to be the bad part. He's like, you want to get this Alzheimer's? Part of it, wow. But he's like, yeah, you should start smoking when you're. Sick. We're getting close to starting our smoking habit that makes. Me want to cry. Well, also, I mean, when I say close, it's a decade, but that's, you know, that's not close. But I then from like a sciency perspective, have we not come up with a way to extract that good part and like consume it recreationally?

34:59 That's a good. Question, you know, like take the bad part of the tobacco white, but like, you know, because I understand like the ritual, that's not a good word, but you know, or practice of smoking like, you know, I, I feel so French when I see it happen, you know, it's like when you're in French, you almost feel like you should have a cigarette and it wouldn't even be bad for you there. That's how I feel about wine when I'm there. But you know, I wonder why they haven't come up with that. I mean my what's the conspiracy theory? Brien is going to. They want you to die. But like, I mean, that's ridiculous. But you know, I wonder why? Probably just capitalism hasn't found a way to exploit that sufficiently yet.

35:40 Yeah, fair. Don't worry, it'll happen. It'll come. Maybe that's another business. We should. Oh my God, yes. You can add it to your portfolio successful businesses. Multi $1,000,000 Ideas on the show. You live in Utah. This is the home of supplements. If we sell it as a supplement with no explicit health claims, then we're exempt from FDA approval. Oh my God, let's do it. Let's start a wee pyramid scheme too. Yeah, we have to make it multi level marketing. Yeah, maybe Justin Rams could help us with that. Hey Justin, we need a Word of Wisdom approved nicotine patch to prevent us all declining neurologically as adults. Hey, the Word of Wisdom doesn't mention nicotine. It says tobacco.

36:21 Yeah, and if you're not using tobacco, it should be fine, right? I think so. Wow. You're striking goal today, Mel. I love this. You're getting all the work around. I love it. All right, do you have anything else to say about tobacco? Have you ever smoked? I wasn't what I would consider a smoker, but I, I mean, definitely as a teen I thought it would, you know, it made me look cool, which it didn't. But and then my, my basketball coach shouted at me and said, you can't be doing that. I was like, brother, I am not a high performing athlete but OK. You're like, it's not going to matter from my level of athletic prowess. Yeah, like we are, we are a a very minor team, but I appreciate your concern. Also I thought he was hot so I stopped. OK, I like that.

37:08 Good. Perfect. It's interesting. I haven't, I've never been a smoker. Like I have smoked a cigarette here and there. Usually after a drink or two, I'm like, it might be fun to like have a cigarette. It's like a little craving. But it turns out that people just genetically fall into a few categories. Like some people get a little smoker's high. Wow. So there's a an instant reward from smoking a cigarette. Like, they just get a little like feeling of euphoria. Yeah. And it feels good. I'm not one of those people. Like I again, it's just like a oh, at the bar. It seems like it would be fun to like have something to put in my mouth like. Mel, we could find you other things that wouldn't damage your lungs. Well, we'll get to the meeting. Part later.

37:52 Oh my God I love it. So funny. That's amazing. Yeah, but I don't, I don't get. You didn't like it too much? Yeah, I don't like it that much. Yeah. And some people just, like, have no response at all. Yes, that seems to be a genetic thing. Yeah, and I, I mean, you could look at lots of things, right? Like you try stuff and you're like, that's not for me. You just don't fancy it. Yeah, for sure. But I find it really interesting because some people can get addicted pretty easily into like smoking and other people like me are just like, man, it's not a big deal. But I do want to point out like that's not a virtue in me. That's that's by way of my genetic background, right? So I feel like some of the shame that we put on people for like things like smoking, things like addiction, right, That's a disease, things like high body weight, right. This is genetics plays a really big role in that. Yeah.

38:41 And I feel like in America, we have this very like virtuous, like fat shaming culture, which isn't super biologically accurate. That is an amazing point when you even compare it with the shade of the start of this, right? Like for the weakest among you. And there's this idea of weakness being associated with the need for something and, you know, addiction, like, I know it's very complex and, you know, it's, you could argue lucky that you just didn't fancy. It oh exactly and like you. Lucky genetics. Or yeah, when people talk about the homeless or or on house population, right, there's a lot of shade thrown that way. Like though, if they were just like had more willpower or something like that, the truth is a lot of those people, like there's a genetic component, there's also an environmental component of how they grew up.

39:31 And so it's something we should be treating first of all with compassion, but then probably secondly, from a more utilitarian perspective, right? It's not good for any of us to have a really big unhoused population. But instead, we like to point fingers and just be like, oh, these people suck, instead of, like, what has gone awry? And like, how can we treat like these human beings, you know, with compassion and respect in a way that could have a better outcome both for them and for all of us? Right, because if, if, if I mean compassion aside, my God, what like a crazy suggestion, especially associated with religion, but like, you know, if, if every, if people are doing well, everybody's doing well, you know, and so it's it's better for everybody, but. Treating it with at that more scientific approach, shall we say, because that's why I think even people within Mormonism hide things, right?

40:27 And it there is that sort of genetic or biological component that's just, you know, just pray harder to the BB Jesus and you won't want to do it. And that's not true. It's not true. Yeah. And it's really, really damaging. Yep. And that comes into play with sexuality, right? Like when I was growing up, there's this idea you could just pray the gay away, right? Yes. And that is just badly not true, as we all know. Yes. And then those terrible practices like the conversion therapy, yes, like no, it just, it's not gonna work. That's. Bad, bad stuff. But it will fuck people up real bad. Oh yeah, yeah. But and then you have to pray again to get your mental illness taken away so to support people.

41:11 All right. Well, yeah, a little bit of a digression. Yes, it's so unlike us actually. We never go off on stage. It's all connected. All right, so let's move on to our next piece. So verse 9. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly. I feel like we could spend a lot of time here. Oh yeah. Because by hot drinks, Mormons specifically mean coffee and tea. And that it's so is it? Does it say coffee and tea? And it does not. It just says hot drinks. Only says hot drinks. There's no asterisk that says hot cocoa is allied. No, but hot cocoa is allowed. Oh, it's encouraged. It's. Encouraged and as we said a little earlier and herbal teas are understood by most Mormons to be just fine. Interesting.

41:57 And I think that's been clarified like I think you had the lds.org like page up, but they I think it's very like official that this means specifically coffee and tea and it means that whether it's hot or not. So iced coffee is not a loophole. You cannot be drinking coffee or iced tea, by the way. Damn it. Yeah, well, and back to our earlier point about like some people taking it to level 20, I remember discovering Kombucha the Bootch. I feel like just such a ridiculous middle-aged lady saying this, but I remember discovering the Bootch by probably almost 20 years ago, 15 maybe, and enjoying it very much for the health benefits, your gut and the effervescent like nature. Just as a nice drink.

42:51 And someone in church told me I couldn't drink it because the Scooby or but I don't even think it does. There's sometimes like tea, like black tea in but I don't even know how accurate that is to be completely honest. And I was like, I cannot give up my kombucha. And one of the the gateway to our entire family leaving the church was Chai tea. Oh yeah, yeah. Because we we apparently with the asterisks that isn't actually there, it was also deemed bad. Yeah, I don't know exactly, but Chai Chai tea is tea, right? Yeah, that just has like the nice spices.

43:31 And everything is. Delicious. It's so good. I love it. Yeah. But it it all, it's just so like, who is saying this? Who is deeming you can't have the Butch but you can have hot cocoa? Right. That seems like an extra, I don't know, vigilant. Right. That's not. I've never heard that kombucha is prohibited. Yeah, I could see why. Like people are like, oh, it's probably more like that's an unfamiliar thing. I don't understand that's. A get it away from me. Yeah. I don't like it. Do you do yoga? Oh, my God. Yeah. Like it's not a hot drink. No, it's not a hot drink. But hot cocoa is hot cocoa. Is, but iced coffee isn't, I say as I take a sip of my iced. Coffee right now Sinner.

44:16 I would take a sip of mine except I always seem to get a mocha because apparently with an Irish accent. When you say iced oat milk latte, it sounds like mocha. Well, I. Know so I can't take a sip anymore because my belly is starting to hurt with all the chocolatey gross. Oh, you're so. Sweet, I'm all good thank you though. But yeah, we'll just sit and and send here with yeah, like how how did where did the specifics come from? Like, I don't know that there was a like a after the doctrine of confidence, a future revelation, right, like. There wasn't a future revelation, but it was clarified officially by the church to me in coffee and.

44:59 Tea. Yeah. And this, it's actually though interesting because I think when it first came out, this was part of a strand in American culture where it was thought that hot things were damaging to your stomach. And not coffee and tea, but just anything hot like including soup. Oh wow. Was you wouldn't want to drink that hot because it could damage your stomach and cause ulcers. That was the idea. We know now that that is false, but Joseph Smith, along with many other people at the time, thought that hot drinks were bad for your health, and it turns out they're not. OK, at least. Like the heat doesn't really have anything and honestly you don't want to like drink something that's going to burn you right? But if it's less sub burning temperatures, it doesn't damage your stomach and it also doesn't cause ulcers and actually ulcers.

45:44 Can I just go on a tiny? Yes I no I love this. So there's an idea, another idea, and it persists today. Actually, the ulcers are due to stress or potentially eating spicy foods, and it turns out that's not really the case either. So chili chicken is all. Good white wine or not? No white wine or. Not it turns out that generally gastric ulcers are caused by a bacterium. It's called Greeley. Yeah, Helicobacter pylori, and it's pretty common. About half of people are actually infected with it, but a lot of times it's asymptomatic. OK, But if there is maybe damage to the stomach lining or whatever, they can get in there and then actually dissolve all the mucus that is protecting your stomach cells that go with the stomach cells and then start to like dig into the cells themselves.

46:34 And that causes an ulcer. And it can be associated down the road with cancer. So do people typically only know they have that when an ulcer happens and they kind of work backwards? Yeah, I mean, ulcers hurt, but this was actually a controversial idea in science for a while. And we got to give us a shout out to Doctor Barry Marshall. He was an Australian microbiologist. He was working on Helicobacter pylori, and he published a paper on it saying this is actually what causes ulcers in the early 80s. And the scientific community was like, no, it doesn't, you're stupid. It was like made fun of. Everybody was like laughing at it. And he was like, no, like, I have the evidence and it was in the paper, but people just dismissed it because, again, the dominant idea was that it was like stress or like spicy food or some other thing. And so he was finally like, OK, fuckers, watch this, right, hold my beer.

47:29 He was Australian, right? Hold my beer. I. Really love it. Accent. So what he did was he took a beaker of Helicobacter pylori culture and he drank it. Oh my God, he took one for the team of humanity. For science. Wow. And within 10 days, he had ulcers. And. So that actually demonstrated to everyone that this was the causative agent for at least many gastric ulcers. He eventually won the Nobel Prize, I believe. Good. I know. Dude deserves that. Yeah. Holy crap. Live, live subjects. Yeah.

48:11 Wow, right. And actually you can. You get around ethics sports if you're experimenting on yourself, you don't have to get permission for that. No IRB approval needed. Wow. Oh my God. See, I love hearing sancy things from you. In fact, I like trust you, I think more than any other source because I'm like Melissa Rella knows her shit. And like, it's funny in talking about this, thinking about all the health myths that are right. There, there's so many. Like in terms of both prevention and consumption, absolutely. You know, the things that that people take into their body because they see an Instagram Reel that it's good for them or the things that you don't. I remember no shade on my mother because again, she was impacted by the things at the time. She told me that I would get stomach ulcers because I ate too much ketchup.

49:02 And it was the vinegary component because she's like, the vinegar aspect is not good for your belly. And again, she was acting with good intention. I'm sure that she just didn't want me to get ulcers. But like, that's so funny, the things that people have thought over time caused. Them and still think that there's so much misinformation out there. I would love to do a whole episode about this specific. Let's do it on on health myths. I love it because this is part of the word of Wisdom. Like you could argue that some things make sense and others are a giant myth. Yes, right. Like, alcohol is not healthy for you. Calco is not healthy for you. Cool. But now that we're talking about hot drinks, and it turns out that.

49:46 Well, let me caveat this first, because dietary science is, is hard, right? Because you've got a big human population. People are eating and drinking all kinds of different things. So you can't generally take people and put them in a lab and control their diets. Yeah. At least not for very long. You could maybe recruit college students and do that for a short amount of time. You can't lock people away for their wholeness and control everything they eat. Yeah. So data is always noisy. It's pretty hard to make sense of sometimes. Sometimes you have correlations that might seem like causations, but they're not. It's just two things that go together because of some different third factor that maybe you're not thinking of. Yeah. Also, people genetically are different, right? A lot of our health information comes from doing experiments on young, healthy white 20 something males.

50:33 I'm shocked. It turns out that although some things are generalizable to everyone, other things are not right and there is a genetic background component as well for a lot of these things. So with all that being said, coffee is correlated with, and I want to be careful to say correlated not 'cause A cause, 'cause causative. Causative. That's a word, right? It is correlated with drinking coffee regularly, correlated with a lower risk of Parkinson's disease. Wow. Alzheimer's disease, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndromes in general, kidney disease, liver disease, and gallstones and kidney stones. So coffee, it turns out, is probably now, again, probably because of the caveat it's probably healthy for you.

51:20 Wow. It's also correlated with lower rates of depression in some studies, not all studies. Damn, yeah. So it's it's pretty good, like drinking yay coffee. 3 cups of coffee a day is also linked to a lower risk of stroke and cardiovascular disease. Wow. So coffee seems to be at minimum neutral and best case scenario quite healthy. So not, not bad for you in the way that we were raised, say, in the Mormon church. Like I was made to believe that coffee was like, evil. Yeah, me too, and it's bad. It's not bad for you at all. Now, with anything, you can overuse it, of course. So if you're drinking more than five cups of coffee a day, that's actually probably not healthy. You're speeding up your heart, right? It can cause anxiety.

52:06 Some people it causes anxiety at lower doses, right? Because again, we're not genetically all the same. So they're, you know, different people are going to tolerate it differently. In general, drinking a few cups of coffee a day is probably just fine, if not beneficial for you. Interesting. Maybe somebody needs to have a wee revelation sometime soon, because I'm dying to know where soda fits into all of this. Let's get that to that in a minute, but I'll just say like one more thing about coffee, actually, two more things about coffee. And one of them I think you're really going to like. So first of all, coffee is not even contraindicated when you're pregnant. They just say to to limit it, but you can still drink a cup of coffee a day and that's considered to be just fine. And I mean, that would be true of, like, drinking too much of A caffeinated beverage period.

52:59 Like, limit your monsters. Yeah. I mean, maybe just don't at all, but you know what I mean. Like it. Yeah. There's no rationale for any other component of coffee to. Certainly not linked. To any sort of birth defect or any like risks in pregnancy, It's just like keep it like limited. Don't get 5 cups of coffee. They make you one. Yeah, I didn't drink a lot of coffee when I was pregnant because I just didn't want it. My body was like, it didn't want a lot of. Yeah, it wanted sugar and red meat. Yeah, and it did not want alcohol. Wow. That's handy, actually. Yeah, it was. Really. Nice. That's actually how I knew I was pregnant. Like I oh. My goodness was. Offered a drink and I was like, I wanna throw up. Like I wow. And I was like, I'm probably just sick. And and then I, you know, that was in Alaska.

53:40 And then I walked home and I was at Whole Foods and I was walking by the fish aisle and there was a big like salmon filet and I looked at it and I almost threw up in my grocery cart and I was like, whoa, I'm. Pregnant, you're like something is different. I don't want to drink and looking at fish makes me want to throw up. Wow. Yeah. So I was pregnant and, like, that's good. Yeah. Body. Yeah, thank you for rejecting alcohol while I was incubating a little fetus. That is amazing and I also think that that leans into self trust, which is not encouraged in the Mormon. Faith true. That's a really good point. Because your body will actually tell you and this will definitely come up again in future episodes. I know this like you're I I really do believe that you're. I mean, we feel things in our body. People are like, no, what's in your head first? It's the other way around.

54:30 And if we lent into that trust, and if we listen to our body instead of the Holy Spirit, like, then maybe we'd all be in a good spot. We'd. Probably be in a better. Spot. Yeah. And the, the regulation around dietary stuff or consumption of things, you know, we could all pretty much manage that too. That we had a family doctor when I was young that I'm grateful for. He would always tell my mom, like, don't, don't even limit goodies. He's like, 'cause you have to give children an opportunity to learn self regulation, yes, and intuitive eating. And he's like, so if they don't want to finish their dinner, don't force it. If they want to eat cake, let them eat cake, let them eat cake. But you know, in the 70s and 80s, that was pretty, pretty daring.

55:17 It was, yeah. But actually this that reminds me of a story I was telling my son the other day of growing up in the Mormon church. And there was this family that had, I think like 9 kids, and they were not allowed to eat sugar. Their parents restricted that from them. And so these were the kids that were literally digging through the garbage at church when we had cake or other goodies to like, lick people's plates because they were so. My God. Wow, that wild. That is sad and wild and crazy all at once. So sad. Yeah, it's you don't. You don't get the opportunity to flex that self trust muscle much. I know. And so then when you're not like with your parents, or we see it with some ex Mormons, when you've decided you're not part of the church anymore, some people just go crazy. Yeah, right.

56:02 And they're like, oh, now I can drink coffee, now I can drink alcohol. They start developing an alcohol problem. Like they just go way off the deep end and a lot of things because they've never learned that self. Regularly yes you're so right my God that's wild and and your wee body was just there going OK we're doing this 9 not. Drinking, that's just, I don't want it. I love that. I love that. Also, I wanted to say when I was researching the history, there were general authorities that thought that pork was the worst thing than coffee before 1900. And like, scientifically, we know that's true now, right? Yep. Be going to get into the meat in a minute. Wow, they were onto something there. Tea is a similar story.

56:49 So tea is a pretty rich source of a chemicals called flavonoids. They're also associated with a lower risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. So it turns out that tea, probably specifically green tea, well, not specifically because black tea is good too, but like maybe even more so with green tea. It's probably quite good for you. Oh my God, I drink a lot of green tea that's like my we go to work drink so that I don't drink 10 cups of coffee a day. I have 10 cups of green tea with lemon juice, which I started to panic about the enamel of my teeth because I was having large volumes of lemon juice. But you know, wow, that's good. All Irish people will be will be fine because they drink about 10 cups of black tea a day. There you go.

57:32 Yeah, well, don't stop. Yeah, keep going. Yes, that we know about with tea. Wow, yeah, that is just all so interesting. All right, so we get into The Dirty sodas. Oh yes, yes, yes. OK, what does what does the Word of Wisdom say about them? Well, it doesn't say anything about sodas. What? Or cold drinks. By the way, actually that reminds me of that old joke. Do you know this one? What's the difference between a Mormon and a non Mormon? What? The temperature of their caffeine. Oh my God, I've never heard that. That's so accurate though, right? Wow. Although when I was growing up there were like kind of two raging camps in the church. Maybe you had it in Ireland too. I'm not sure where some people would drink caffeinated soda and some people wouldn't. So this is super interesting because when I was growing up in the church in Ireland, it was it was specific to Coke. Oh, just coke.

58:27 Just Coke, but Pepsi was OK. No, sorry. Yes, like colas. Colas. So it was a caffeine, it was identified as a caffeine component and so it was cola specifically. I we didn't have like there is there caffeine in Doctor Pepper root beer, Yes. Doctor Pepper, Yes. OK, no, because we really some root beer, yes, I think, but most of it no. We didn't have a a smorgasbord of sodas. We basically had 7UP like Fanta and Coca-Cola, like Pepsi, like the sort of the bare minimum like orange, lemon, lime cola. And so the other ones were not prohibited. And I remember specifically my mom thought she had struck gold because there was this brand called 1 Cal or something, I guess like early diet sodas and this cola had no caffeine in it. And so I can remember being at a church function and drinking a can and they were like, you're not allowed to drink Coke. And I was like, no, it's got no caffeine in it. Look, look, it says on the can like, and it, that's what it was centered on.

59:40 And it it makes it so interesting now because like has that just like the Men in Black thing being erased from people's breeds. I mean, I kind of feel like it has. When I went to BYU, they didn't have any caffeinated soda that was sold on campus really. So they had caffeine free Diet of Coke that was available. Yeah, but only the caffeine free version. And a lot of people at BYU were like pretty anal about that. Yeah. I'd say they're like, yeah, yeah, you can't drink caffeine. But I grew up drinking Doctor Pepper because my parents were at Caffeine is fine if it's in soda. Interesting. Family, yes. So I think it was a big debate and people used to argue about it in church and now I feel like that's mostly gone away. It's gone.

1:00:24 Yeah. I mean, we've been we've been out of the club for a while now. But like the clerb, but like with the proliferation of this, the Mormon sodas and Diet Coke specifically that nobody is ever specifying it's caffeine. Like that argument. Sorry, I don't finish sentence sometimes caffeine free pedal back. It just seems like a non argument because also monster. Monster is a big thing. I remember my word that I had here in America when they went to boys camp, they would bring cases of monster. Really. Yeah, that's pretty highly caffeinated.

1:01:05 Yes, right. So it clearly it's not really about the caffeine anymore. Yeah, I guess not. That's just kind of gone away. Did the BB Jesus come and say that? Like how did this happen? Well, I think the Mormon church maybe never officially said that caffeine was bad. Like, I think there were some maybe Mormon general authorities that might have said it here and there, but it was, he's never like sat down as an actual different thing. So it was kind of left open to interpret. And some people, of course, virtue signaled more. And some people were like, well, it's not official, so I can drink all the coke I want. And that's just kind of what it was. Kind of like the original Word of Wisdom. I like it, yeah. I mean, for it to be institutional, institutionalized though, on like a level of BYU not having, you know what I mean?

1:01:51 Like that was pretty kind of in there and then it just like. Disappeared. It's interesting, right? Because, like, they didn't, I don't know, make that a condition of being at BYU that you didn't drink caffeinated sodas. They simply did not sell them on campus. Yeah. Right. So it's like this weird. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, it's not. It is not mentioned. The word caffeine is not mentioned on lds.org. Yeah, it's such an interesting thing. I think they've like, I feel like they've rebranded it a little bit to say, well, this is just a way of like showing devotion to like God or your religion and sort of taking the health bits out. Like when I grew up, they would talk all about the health benefits and how, like you said, like how bad caffeine and, or how bad coffee and tea were. And then like all the research shows that's not true. And so now they stepped away from that and they're like, oh, it's just a way like to show religious devotion. That wow, that's that's a great mind fuck right there, Jedi mind trick.

1:02:51 Well, and because we know that like, soda isn't the greatest, like with artificial sweeteners and you know, but now it's OK. Yeah, although aspartame, it's not maybe great for you, but to go over the limit of what is considered by the FDA, which, you know, who knows to be unhealthy, Yeah, you have to drink about 20 diet Cokes a day. Interesting. Which probably some people. Some. People probably do so maybe that's a little too much aspartame, but you know, if you're worried about having a Diet Coke now and then, you probably you're fine. It's. Fine, Oh my God, my mind's being blown so many times today. I love that. Wow. All right. Anything else you want to say about soda, Caffeine, Coffee, tea, hot chocolate? It's just so weird, Like it's just such a weird prescribing of something not real.

1:03:44 I don't know, Like you say, you can't have those things where there's at least, you know, a correlation with a benefit. But the other stuff is free game like yeah just. Oh, I thought of one more thing I want to say. Oh, yes. What about the T? So remember how I said that, like, when the Mormons fled the United States, they were, like, trying to cut their dependence on the East? Yeah. Like even once they were resorbed in the US, they were trying not to, like, trade with the East Coast. And so one thing that they tried to do was come up with AT Alternative, right? Because like, again, it wasn't being strictly applied in the 1800s at all. So people were drinking tea and like post em is like a beverage that a lot of other Mormons, like even my grandmother would drink. But there's also this thing called Mormon tea. Have you heard of that?

1:04:25 No. Oh. OK, so this is really interesting. So this is a tea that's brewed from a plant that is all over southern Utah. It's really, really common. And the genus name of the plant is Ephedra. And you boil that and drink it and I I've heard it's really gross. I haven't tried it but it will give you a fucking jolt because the name ephedra like this contains ephedrine. Oh my God, Real strong stimulant. So that's really interesting, right? Because it's gross, right? You're not like a lot of the reason we drink these beverages is because they taste good. Yeah, it's nice. Like it's just yummy, right? But to drink something gross that has an effect is wow, Yeah, you're.

1:05:11 Doing that just for the stimulant, yeah, right. Which? And it's a stronger stimulant than caffeine and probably isn't nearly as healthy. Oh my God, we got to get to the desert and boil ourselves some Mormon tea. Oh, let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to find. It's like it grows all over the southern desert. We'll do it and return and report. All right, a little experiment. Yes. All right, let's move on to the next section because we are. Oh my God, we're running long, but that's OK. We're that's OK, stick with it. Important things. Yes, important things. OK, so back to our Doctrine and Covenants, verse 10. I'm just going to read like 3 or 4 in a row and then we'll we'll get to this. OK, So 10 And again fairly I say unto you, also some herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man. 11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof, all these to be used with prudence of Thanksgiving. 12 Yeah, flesh also of beasts, and of the fowls of the air.

1:06:08 I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with Thanksgiving. Nevertheless, they are to be used sparingly. What? 13. And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold or famine. Wow. So should we talk about meat? I think we should. That signs to me like no burgers in summer. Yeah, no cookouts, no Pioneer Day burgers and brats. Interesting. So I feel personally that this is one of the areas that gets really overlooked. And it speaks a little to my neurosis, quite honestly, because before they used to make the members clean the church, I cleaned the church, which we may have mentioned before, and with my wee kiddos. And when I was actually pregnant with my son, I find a book in the Bishop's office.

1:07:03 And I was like, can I have this? And he's like, sure. And it was someone making the argument that Mormons actually should be very close to being vegetarian. I mean, that's what I just read. Yeah, and I was like, wait, what? So again, being my little compulsive self, I was like, well, I must become a vegetarian again. I had been one previously in my teen years, quite honestly, mostly because of The Smiths and Morrissey, if I'm honest, the meat is murder album. So I read this book and I was like, Oh my God, meat is so bad for you. Like I so actually wasn't like a a virtue thing. It was more like, you know, they provide evidence, well, slanted evidence.

1:07:46 And obviously they're like, this is bad for you, this is bad for you. And I was just like, I think with the, you know, combined thing of being pregnant and getting ichabyte things, I was like, I'm going to be a vegetarian again. And I have ever since for like 26 years now. But that's amazing. Well, it's just like that is never talked about. I had never heard it highlighted at any stage before. I read that book and I was like, oh shit, that's actually in there. Oh. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's not like wishy washy either. It's like you shouldn't be eating it unless it's winter or it's cold or there's a famine. Wow. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty. Clear. Oh my God. But yeah, I was never really that was totally deemphasized.

1:08:29 Yes, like I it's not like we read the word of wisdom from the scriptures a lot, it was more like a lore. Yeah, because they were always reading out of like, the manual. Yeah, it wasn't necessarily the Scriptures. Yes, you might open your scriptures and read like a selected verse or two, right. But I don't really remember ever, like going through verse by verse and like talking about. No, it was just prepackaged. Yes and but definitely not the meat because I feel like meat features heavily in Mormon culture and eating. Oh yeah, I feel like they eat. Maybe even. I don't have any statistics to put this up, and maybe even more of me than people generally. I I get those vibes. It seems like it. Yeah. Yeah.

1:09:10 Huh. Well, what do you know? Right. And I think there are no, I personally am not a vegetarian, but I think there's a lot of really legitimate reasons to avoid meat. Like you said, the meat is murder. OK. So the way that animals are treated, particularly in a factory farming situation, is frankly abhorrent. Yeah. It is just a horror show and I'm, I'm, you know, I don't need to say a lot more about that, but it is just absolutely horrific, the treatment of these living beings. Secondly, there is a really good environmental reason to eat less meat. As a society, the amount of land and resources that we turn over to meat production and growing food for meat animals is a pretty leading cause of things like deforestation, wow, and erosion and stuff like that.

1:10:00 And if we all ate lower on the food chain, then we could support more people in a, in a sort of better standard of living on this planet. So that is true for sure as well. And then thirdly, since we've been talking about health this whole time, once again, let's say correlation, just to like be clear, but eating a lot of red meat or processed meat is correlated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease as well as certain cancers, particularly colorectal cancer. Yeah, because isn't there something about it the way it digestion or it stays in your bowel for longer? I I think that's the hypothesis, not clued in on the science. Per SE. Like I'm sure that we have like a completely causative mechanism, but like that correlation has been shown in pretty big studies. And that's red meat only.

1:10:49 Right. Yeah, as far as I know. There might be another research on fish and chicken. I'm not really sure. I mean, fish has a different story. You should avoid eating too much for the mercury, especially certain types of fish. Yeah, and also to avoid, you know, collapsing our entire ocean ecosystem, which is happening. By the way, not good. No, not good. Yeah, I did start eating fish. I may have to rethink that now. I. Think eating at sparingly is OK, particularly like, if you're worried about that, it's a really good idea to get the Monterey Aquarium Seafood watch list. You probably already know about that. And just look at like the red, orange, yeah, green or red, yellow, green and just stick to the more green ones, yes. Yeah. And yeah, 'cause laden with mercury. And they're also creating based on sustainability, Yeah.

1:11:33 That's yeah, making good. Food choices for not just putting it into your body you know like the I love that you brought up that the sustainability of the fish and also the how much water and green and all of those things it takes to produce like a pint of beef. It's really bad is in sea and and. You know what's? Interesting as well is that I remembered, as you were saying that, that the way I typically remember meat being framed within the context of the church was that they were put on the surfs for Are You Stammit? Yeah, I remember that too. But I feel like again, there's a couple. Strands and Mormonism, like a couple of camps, and one of them is I think that the dominant by far more widespread one that you just mentioned, which is like, oh, everything is just here for our use, so we can like, fuck it up and that's fine. But I think there's another sort of scriptural reading, a camp which says that yeah, this is here for our benefit, but we also have the responsibility to be a good steward over it. They leave that part out a lot.

1:12:37 Yeah. But actually that's went denying climate change supported scripturally then. That first like, oh, we can just fuck everything up and it's fine. Consumers consume, consume. Yeah, I personally don't think that like. Everything was made for us like. That is not my view, but if you were gonna sort of go all in on the Mormon scriptures, I think it's more supported to be part of the second. Like we have to, we've been given something, but we have to use it responsibly and the the selectivity. Is really interesting. It's really interesting kind of to bring it full circle, I think there is. Something that goes along with that first idea, which is that, well, we, we don't really need to think about conserving things or taking care of things because Jesus is coming back any day.

1:13:20 Oh yeah, that. I've heard that argument often, Yeah. So why not let species go extinct? Yeah, like. Why not just fuck everything up? My God, it's horrible. Yeah, I don't, I don't think. That the baby Jesus would like that. I mean, I'm not trying to speak for him like the Mormons do, but like, you know, you, you would imagine it would be like, you know, you purchase a, a home and, and then you have another home, but you tell your kids as in being humankind and we're Jesus in this scenario. But like you're like, you can live there, 'cause I'm going to sell it in six months. And so they just go, hey, let's go crazy and, you know, beat the shit out of this house. Like I would not be happy as the owner of that. So you would imagine as the perception of the BB Jesus as the owner of the world or creator, like I don't I don't know that he would be on board. That is such a good analogy.

1:14:12 It's like, oh, let me just like. Shit all over this house and put the part of it down and that's fine, 'cause you're going to be here and it's all you're going to cleanse it with fire. Anyway, like, more back to that, like, gross. Like apocalyptic. Yes, yes. My God. Wow. Yeah, The meat part. That's interesting. It's pretty wild. Yep. Yep. Wow. All right. Well, I mean, should I read the rest of it? That's. Kind of like the main thing, they talk a little bit about grain and fruit, and then that's supposed to be used. And then at the end it says that All Saints who remember to keep and do these things, walking in obedience to these commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones.

1:14:56 And she'll find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures, and she'll run and not be weary, and she'll walk in that faint. And I, the Lord, give them unto them, I promise that the destroying angels shall pass them, pass by them as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen. And that's the end of the chapter. I almost said, Amen. Oh my God, the programming. Amen, sister. Well, and I also feel like, you know, that is, that's the part that always got me because even though I'm, I'm a little bit neurotic health wise in terms of like movement and food and and alcohol and all that kind of thing. And I think that that's where neurotic persons like myself that got them because I genuinely believed if I did it, then I'd just be well and I wouldn't die. And like, we're all going to die and put, you know, it's like it it just puts a wee worm in your head that like, OK, if I if I really do this, I'll be fine.

1:15:53 Which is not true. Like, yeah, I mean, I think like we just talked about some of. These things are good for your health, like avoiding alcohol and and tobacco, but others are not. And then I kind of wonder, like, what's the mental health toll of getting so wrapped up in this and being so scrupulous about, you know, doing all these things? I feel like religious scrupulosity is correlated with lower mental health outcomes. 100%. And I, that's a great word. I could never. Have said it as seamlessly as you did that one Scrupulosity, Scrupulosity. I it is ridiculous that I still stumble over words at this age. But no, it's not, you know, it's, it's like saying the legislature. Yeah, that's that's a tricky 1.

1:16:40 I I do think it's because my tongue is too big for my mouth, but anyway, that could have other skills. But question, does it say in there that that vegetables and herbs and fruits and all that should be with prudence? Yeah, let me go back so it. Says every herb in the season thereof and every fruit in the season thereof. All these to be used with prudence and Thanksgiving. Huh. It is in there because it was an LDS organ. I was. Like what an interesting word it is like be prudent with your. Use of fruits and. Vegetables, yeah. I don't know if that means you should restrict it, but it's. Certainly telling you to watch out for something. I'm not really sure that that just was interesting.

1:17:20 Like I had no. Conclusions. But I was just like, what an interesting word. Like Thanksgiving again, alluding to being a steward of the earth and being grateful and and all that. And you know, that's, that's just so interesting. And the wheat and the rice and the oats being the staff of life and yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that there's that seasonality. Component to just saying you should be eating in season, which we totally don't do in America, like at all. I mean, some people probably do, but they're a tiny minority and and that's all related to climate. Change too right like the if we at seasonally it would be better for the environment and you know wow crazy right huh well. This is a good lesson.

1:18:02 I think in really going back to the source, whatever how we define source, just the primary document, you know, we'll get very academic here be like this, the this this primary document correlated with the interpretation and the lower like it's just folklore at this point. I mean, it's really interesting how it's changed over time and how some of this is. Like very much applied in the modern Mormon church. And some isn't at all like the meat. Yeah, like so do should you go shame a Mormon when? You see them eating a burger in summer, now I'm going to go knock it out of their hands just. Let's go to in and out. We're going to in. And out in Centerville and we're going to. Be like.

1:18:44 Set it down. Step away. Center. Yeah. Mormon. Oh, my God. Bad Mormon. Oh my God. It's not just Heather Gay. It's all the burger eating marmons. If it's in the winter, it's OK. Yeah. Or famine. Or famine. Yeah, which we do not have here. Nope. Not shot exactly. Nope. Nope. Nope. Especially with all those big mills and green storage units. And yeah, no shortage of calories here. Nope, definitely not. Well, wow. There you. Wow. Quite literally. Yeah. Wow. Word of Wisdom. Well, this has been a journey. It has. If anyone's still listening, I think this. One's.

1:19:25 Educational and lightning, you are not from the great. State of Utah, or if you've never been. Mormon, I bet you learned a little something today. Yeah, I would. I would say so. And and and. Maybe if you were, you have too. Because I know I did. Yeah, me too, definitely. I mean I. Kind of knew that it wasn't universally applied back in the day, but I didn't realize like how common it was to like drink beer, drink coffee, drink tea, all of that until the early 1900s. And Brother Brigham's bar. Brother Brigham. 'S bar. That's hard to say. Maybe I have skills in another linguistic direction. Yeah, there you go. Feel like maybe your tongue skills should? Be taken advantage of more often? Maybe I should put that on my profile your. Dating profile?

1:20:07 Yeah, unspecified. Tongue. Skills. Oh, God, no. I let's not do that. Oh, dear. On that note. All right, yeah. Just final thoughts. Put your tongue in good things, people. Mormon or. Not Oh my God, toss that salad fence. Just kidding. I meant food. And meat. No meats, but yeah, OK, OK. Stay salty right there. Stay salty, friends. We'll come at. We'll come back in, we'll come at you. We'll come next time. So there is a famine of. Sorts happening for me and Melissa. You can tell with all our Freudian slips. So there you go.

1:20:48 Definite famine. Yes, OK. It's time of famine we need. Meat. We need meat and people to come at us. Send me friends. All right. Have a good meat. And if you like this episode, please don't forget to give us a five star rating. Leave us a review, follow us or leave a comment. Thank you so much. Bye.