Salt, Secrets, and Mel's Mormon Exit Story

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Welcome back to our podcast,
Coming at you Deep from behind

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the Zion Curtain, AKA Utah.
I'm Claire.

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And I'm Mel and I love it.
Deep from behind.

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Oh God.
Anyway, together we are the

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salty hoes before we dive into
our topic for the day.

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Hey Claire, what's new with you?
You know, not not too much, but

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it's been a tiring time so
nothing too exciting.

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I did have a very interesting
sleep episode this week.

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Oh, tell me about that.
So I guess I was really tired.

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I was watching some like
mindless TVI don't even know

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what it was and fell asleep in
the couch.

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So nothing out of the the
ordinary there.

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I think like about 9:30.
Like I I go really late

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apparently these days.
Same girl.

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Yeah.
It's just like ho 930.

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Yeah.
And I woke up at 12:30 PM on my

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hands and knees.
Now for fun reasons that could

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have been.
Fun, not deep from behind.

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Not deep.
There was nobody coming deep

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from behind.
I was alone with my cats.

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But yeah, so I was on my hands
and knees.

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Maybe I am like, have deep
sexual frustrations and I'm

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living the might in my sleep.
I don't know.

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Or just.
Overworked.

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Or maybe you're just a yoga
instructor and you were doing a

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little cat cow.
Little cat cow sequence in my in

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my sleep.
So yeah, I woke up, hands and

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knees and cheek resting on the
couch.

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Oh my goodness.
No recollection of how I got in

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that position, but it must.
I must have been there for a

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while because my back and neck
were like, I couldn't move them,

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like they were so stiff.
I hate that it was good.

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Girl, you need to get some
sleep.

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I need some rest I literally
like crawled up to bed on my

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hands please cuz my wee back.
Was fact well you were there

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anyway, right so yeah, I just.
Yeah, wow.

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On the hands and knees.
So I'm practicing.

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I hope you have some rest
scheduled for this weekend.

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I'm trying, OK?
I'm trying.

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I'm turning into a very boring
person.

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But yeah, no, you're not
scheduling rest, No.

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Good, you need it.
It's all good.

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All right.
Well, today we thought it would

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be great to start to dig a
little deeper into our stories,

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and particularly with regard to
the LDS Church.

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I guess we're not supposed to
say Mormon anymore, Claire, is

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that right?
I guess so, but honestly I can't

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keep up with it because I feel
like it changes all the time and

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I feel like I feel like I feel
like I fully like or I don't

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know what I was trying to say.
I feel like they change it a

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lot.
And now you're expected to say

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the full title.
Oh, the Church of Jesus Christ

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of Latter Day.
Saints of Latter day Saints.

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So for our non Mormon listeners
when we say LDS church.

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Or Mormon church.
Or Mormon church.

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It's like the Latter Day Saints.
Would you believe is in the full

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title.
So, so yeah, I just, it's a

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mindful, I'm not going to say it
every time I reference the

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Mormons.
I don't think I can either.

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And you know, I was called out
by someone and I'm trying to

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remember the context, but they
were like, oh, you can't say

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Mormon.
That's kind of like a slur.

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And I was like, well, I don't
think so.

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I grew up in this church,
whatever we're going to call it.

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And they told us to call
ourselves Mormons proudly.

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They referred to it as the
Mormon church.

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So I'm unsure why it changed,
but just to give our listeners a

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little context, Mormon, LDS, the
Church of Jesus Christ, of

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Latter Day Saints, these are all
interchangeable.

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And we're just gonna, you know
what?

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We're just going to use them
Willy nilly.

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Yep, that's your little
glossary.

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Yes, at the start of the
podcast.

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Because also people call it the
church.

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The Church in capital letters.
And I think that that's the one

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honestly that bugs me the most
because it's like stating it is

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the the church, yes.
And it's just like it's a

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church.
But that's what they believe.

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They believe it is the church.
The only true church on the face

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of the earth is the way they
would say that, right?

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That's that's not toxic or
harmful in any way.

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Absolutely not.
Nope, not.

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Not at all.
Good times.

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We will call it what we want,
damn it.

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Well, Speaking of terms, both of
us are ex Mormons.

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But actually I wanted to ask you
Claire, do you like that term or

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do you prefer one of the other
terms like post Mormon, former

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Mormon?
I don't know what else is out

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there, but I feel like I've
heard people quibble about this

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too because why not?
Oh, why?

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Guess why not?
You know, I just don't.

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I think I'm so far removed, or
at least I feel far removed at

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this point.
I know for some people it's so

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deeply embedded culturally that
they see themselves in those

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terms forever.
Maybe it's because I was an

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Irish Mormon.
I don't know.

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Like I just it's like saying I
was an ex child.

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Or.
You know, oh, I guess I am an

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ex-wife.
That's a really bad example.

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But yeah, it just doesn't.
It's not part of my identity

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anymore.
I mean, obviously there's

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probably aspects of it in there,
but I don't.

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I don't even like refer to
myself as an ex Mormon.

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Is that weird?
Do you?

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I don't.
Know I don't, but I've been out

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for longer in my life than I was
ever in the church.

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So we'll get to that story
today.

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But yeah, I don't think I really
identified as an ex Mormon for

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more than maybe six months or a
year after I left the church.

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And that was in my early 20s, so
I don't really think about it.

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I don't feel Mormon in any way.
Yeah.

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Yeah, same.
Like if it comes up in

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conversation like a new friend
or on a date or like something

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like that where it's relevant to
just reference it.

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But other than that, I'm I'm,
I'm good.

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Yeah same.
I feel like I don't bring it up

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unless someone says oh I I used
to be Mormon or I'm an ex Mormon

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and so then sometimes I'll be
like Oh yeah me too.

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But otherwise I don't really
think about it a lot and I don't

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bring it up.
Yeah, I'm we're in that.

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We're in the same boat.
Absolutely in the same the same

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boat.
Well, let's start from the

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beginning, OK?
I want to hear all your story

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because like, I've known you for
so long, but I don't ever feel

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like we've done a a deep dive.
Yeah, the two are the whole

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complete back story, Yes.
The the Mormon life back story.

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So tell me about where you're
from, parents.

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Like, was it a whole family in
the church?

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Kind of a deal.
Yeah, absolutely.

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So the villain origin story,
here we go.

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I was actually born in Utah, so
I was born in Provo.

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With its mountains and valleys.
Sorry every time I hear that you

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don't know that song.
Oh my God, did your child not

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have to learn it at school?
School No.

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My my children were
indoctrinated with that.

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Well, my child doesn't.
Yeah, go to the same schools

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that yours did.
Maybe that's a Davis True County

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thing.
I don't know, they did it in

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Salt Lake too.
No, they did.

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Yeah.
How weird.

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And it's.
Yeah, it's I I cannot believe

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you haven't heard the Utah with
its might and some valleys.

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I have not.
Wow, you're like, why is Claire?

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Burst into song.
OK, well I guess that brings us

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to the next point, which is that
I did not grow up here.

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That would explain why you
never.

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Learned this time.
So my my parents are both, they

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were raised Mormon.
They both grew up in what we

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call Happy Valley, which is Utah
County.

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And I know if you watch the
secret lives of Mormon wives,

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you've seen shots of Utah
County.

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So that's where Provo and Orem
are, just South of Salt Lake

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City like.
The heart of Mormonism,

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arguably.
Correct.

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That's where BYU is, right is in
Provo.

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So this is really like the
epicenter.

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Yes, Yeah.
It's even more Mormon than Salt

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Lake, right?
We think about Salt Lake.

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That's where the headquarters of
the church is.

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But Provo Orem is way more weird
and more hub.

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It's the hub.
It's the hub.

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Yeah.
So I was born there.

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Actually.
I was delivered by my

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grandfather.
He was a physician.

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I know.
Pretty crazy, right?

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Honestly, kind of cool.
Yeah.

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And within six months, my
parents moved to Idaho.

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My dad had a job in Boise that
lasted a couple years, so I

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don't really remember that.
And then they moved to Portland

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for four years.
I remember just a little of

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Portland, not much at all.
And then I think when I was 6,

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they moved to Northern
California.

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Actually, my strongest memory of
Portland is Mount Saint Helens

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erupting, so that'll date me
just a little bit.

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Yeah, that happened when we were
living there.

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Yeah.
So then moved to California and

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I finished the rest of my
childhood there, the Bay Area

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for a couple of years in
Cupertino, CA, which is the

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headquarters of Apple.
Even back then it was a tech

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hub, but not like it is today.
It wasn't like Silicon Valley

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yet.
Yeah, it was kind of embryonic

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Silicon Valley.
And then we moved to Orange

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County, California, which is
where I grew up, where I

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finished high school.
So I really, if I identify as

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anything I would say I would
identify as a Californian

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because that's where most of my
childhood was.

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You're we Cali girl.
Yeah, we Cali girl.

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Feel like you have Cali girl
vibes in a good.

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Way, thank you.
That's a compliment.

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Like you're cute and tan,
blonde, and like I could see you

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with your resurf board under
your arm.

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Oh, thanks, girlie.
I don't surf, actually.

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It's quite hard.
I've tried it a few times.

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But yeah, I spent a lot of time
in the ocean.

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That's so cool.
Yeah.

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Well, I love that that you got
to to be away from Provo and.

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Absolutely.
I can't.

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I can't imagine what my life
would have been like if I grew

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up here in Utah.
I imagine it would be very

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different.
But you know, it's hard to know,

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right?
You can't go back in time and

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run the experiments again.
No, definitely.

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I have deep Mormon roots.
So like I said, both my parents

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were Mormon.
Both of their fathers come from

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Mormon ancestry, going all the
way back to The Pioneers,

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crossing the plains with Brigham
Young, that whole story.

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You're like Mormon royalty.
Well, I mean not one of the

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famous families.
But you got the lineage, yes,

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you got like the lineage to drop
in there.

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Absolutely.
I mean, I guess we could have

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been Mormon royalty.
I don't know if things had gone

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a little bit differently.
Yeah.

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And then both of my
grandmother's were converts, or

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close to.
So my one grandmother is from

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Sweden and the other is
Pennsylvania Dutch and she got

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converted from an even weirder
cult as I understand.

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Oh my God, you're like we have a
tendency towards cults in our

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family.
Right.

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Apparently gullibility runs in
the family.

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I don't know.
Hey, it all makes sense at the

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start.
Maybe.

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I mean, for the most part, yeah.
Well, maybe someday we can get

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into the, you know, origin story
of Mormonism.

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I don't know how much sense it
makes, but.

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Well, even growing up like
outside of Utah in the Mormon

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church, like, did you like being
Mormon?

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Like what was it like growing up
in the LDS church?

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00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,760
Like what do you remember?
Yeah, I don't think I ever

229
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,680
really loved it.
I remember that church was super

230
00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,680
boring.
Oh yeah, so boring long.

231
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,360
Oh, you know, it used to be 3
hours and I think, what is it

232
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:45,000
now?
2?

233
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,600
Or have they cut it down more?
I don't even know, but I know

234
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,160
it's shortened and I was angry.
I know, me too.

235
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,720
I was like, how dare you after
we suffered our whole

236
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,680
childhoods.
It's terrible.

237
00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,320
Hours.
Days we'll never get.

238
00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,400
Back I know yeah and it's like 3
separate meetings like one

239
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,600
meeting is kind of all together
with the whole congregation and

240
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,000
then it gets split along gender
and age lines why I know they.

241
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,240
Split the genders.
Well, after 12, right?

242
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,920
Because I guess primary is still
integrated, right?

243
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,080
It is, but then you get hormones
and boobs and the girls must be

244
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,440
hidden less they tempt the boys.
Oh, that's probably part of it,

245
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,560
but also they they have to be
indoctrinated separately, right?

246
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:28,200
According to their own gender
role.

247
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,480
After 12, anyway.
We're getting a little bit, you

248
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,160
know, ahead of ourselves.
So hard to not just go on a

249
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,680
tangent here and be like Oh my
God.

250
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,760
Yeah, I mean, maybe this is
gonna be a two-part episode, who

251
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,320
knows?
We're gonna easy for how how we

252
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,760
how we go.
Yeah.

253
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,760
So it was boring.
I remember just sitting in the

254
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,360
congregation.
They call it sacrament meeting

255
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,000
right?
Because they have sacrament or

256
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,840
communion I guess is what other
churches would call it a.

257
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,240
Wee bit of bread and water.
Yeah, just a little bit of

258
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,000
Wonder Bread.
Body in the blood.

259
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,920
I used to hold that bread in my
mouth till it dissolved right.

260
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,400
It was one of the many anti
boredom like tricks.

261
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,160
Yeah yeah.
And time myself see how long

262
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,160
before it completely dissipated.
If they bought posh bread that

263
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,480
week or yeah, you got the
wonder.

264
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,280
Bread.
It was usually the Wonder Bread.

265
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,960
But you know, honestly, I liked
it as a kid.

266
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,800
It tastes like candy.
Oh my.

267
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,120
Well, can we just talk about
that for a minute?

268
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,480
Absolutely.
Because that could also be

269
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,040
because for those of you with no
experience of the Mormon Church,

270
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:33,840
teenage boys prepare this bread
and they break it into chunks

271
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,080
with their hands.
So that could be why it tasted

272
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:42,280
like candy because, you know, I
don't know, often or thoroughly,

273
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,000
teenage boys are washing their
hands and yeah, they break the

274
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,400
bread.
It's like, oh, they I just have

275
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,080
memories of like you could
literally like see and the

276
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,360
thumbprint in it and then you
would put that in your mouth.

277
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,800
Yes, I remember that too.
Actually, now that you say that

278
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:00,800
that.
Is very gross.

279
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,120
I couldn't do it nowadays.
I'm too much of a germaphobe.

280
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,120
I wonder if they've changed that
at all.

281
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,240
I actually have no idea.
Like a toast.

282
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,040
Or something.
Yeah, I don't know.

283
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,040
Yeah, that is pretty sketchy
actually.

284
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,520
Yeah, when you think about it.
Tummy is churning.

285
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,200
I mean, and if you want your
tummy to turn more, make sure

286
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,640
you go back and listen to our
Men Who Don't Use Soap episode.

287
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,880
Oh yeah, that'll relevant.
I'll give you the science on the

288
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,000
funk that you were tasting in
your dissolving bread.

289
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,880
Oh.
Man, yeah, we had a million

290
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,400
little tricks.
We would play hangman like

291
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:36,760
anything you could play on
paper.

292
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,760
Cuz of course no cell phones,
no, no devices existed back

293
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,520
then.
Really.

294
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,000
We signed old.
Yeah, well, we.

295
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,760
I mean, we're getting there,
right?

296
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,200
I don't.
Feel but I don't either but.

297
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,600
Yeah.
Anyway, let's see Primary,

298
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,760
that's the under 12 situation
for kids.

299
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,480
So that would have been the
second couple of hours of

300
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,360
church.
Really kind of hated that it's

301
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,440
indoctrination.
Well, again, it was boring,

302
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,160
right?
It was some like dumb morality

303
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:08,120
lesson.
Yeah.

304
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,560
That they would read out of a
manual.

305
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,280
None of the people there really
had any training.

306
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,920
I felt like working with
children.

307
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,440
It was mostly women.
Not always, but mostly women,

308
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:23,160
and it just wasn't fun or
interesting, and sometimes it

309
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,800
was worse than that.
I do have one kind of strong

310
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,840
memory from primary where we
were in a classroom, probably 10

311
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,200
or 15 of us, and the teacher
apparently didn't want to, you

312
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,080
know, read the lesson manual or
whatever.

313
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,680
So she went rogue.
And yeah, that's always.

314
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,520
Unhinged Sister Mary Francis
went rogue.

315
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,960
Yeah, she went rogue and she
decided that instead of a

316
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,680
lesson, what we would do is go
around the room and each child

317
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,200
had to say whether they liked
their mother or their father

318
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,640
more and why.
What?

319
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,040
Yes.
What?

320
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,800
Oh my God, isn't that wild that
is feels like some kind of

321
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,720
clandestine data gathering.
Like what is she doing 100%?

322
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,400
Oh my God.
Isn't that absolutely unhinged?

323
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,960
That is, on a child.
You comply, right?

324
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,480
Like yeah.
Or did people resist?

325
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,520
No, everybody complied and it
was extremely awkward.

326
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,680
And I remember sitting there
just like racked with guilt

327
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,240
because I was going to have to
say preference.

328
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,160
Oh my God, Like you had to
choose.

329
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:40,480
Yeah, that is mental.
Mental, I was probably, I want

330
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:46,000
to say 6 or 7 at the time, so
refusing isn't something that

331
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,160
would have crossed my head at
that point in my development.

332
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,120
No.
Wow.

333
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,040
I know.
Can you imagine?

334
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,240
I cannot.
Like if somebody did that to my

335
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,600
children at six years old, I
know how I would feel.

336
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,200
And I would unleash hell.
Yeah, that feels, it feels like

337
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,640
she had an agenda or something
100% prepping for divorce or

338
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,760
something.
Like I don't what was happening.

339
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,200
I don't know, we're just getting
the hot Goss on the people in

340
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,319
the in the ward.
Which ward is a congregation?

341
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,079
Oh yeah, that's that's like our
add that to our glossary.

342
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,960
And also you call, which, you
know, I guess a lot of faiths do

343
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,760
this, but everybody is brother
or sister, yes, which I kind of

344
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,160
forgot about until I watched
Under the Banner of Heaven and

345
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,800
it made me feel funny inside.
Well.

346
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,120
It's very cool to you.
It just, yeah, like the way they

347
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,400
were using it, it was like,
yeah, I don't like, I don't like

348
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:40,880
that I.
Don't like it either.

349
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,200
So it wasn't in Utah?
Like what?

350
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,960
Do you think it was different
because you were in California?

351
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,840
I think it probably was in some
regards, actually.

352
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,720
I know it was because we're
skipping ahead a little bit, but

353
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,160
I did end up at BYU and that was
a massive culture shock.

354
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,680
Yeah, massive.
So I do think the church was

355
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,520
quite different in Southern
California versus Utah.

356
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,840
Yeah.
You know, and some things they

357
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,120
kind of came down hard on.
So in case you're not familiar

358
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:12,800
with the Mormon church, one
thing that happens at well,

359
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,440
again, I don't know if it still
happens, but the the Bishop.

360
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:22,440
So the head of the congregation
or ward will take children from

361
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:29,440
age 12 to 18 and give them quote
worthiness interviews one-on-one

362
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,040
alone, door closed, door closed
with an adult man and ask

363
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,400
personal questions about things
like masturbation or sex.

364
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,160
Yes, so highly, highly
inappropriate.

365
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,240
Did that ever happened to you?
Of course.

366
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:47,480
Oh my God.
Yeah.

367
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,480
And I didn't really have much to
say about that because I was,

368
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,280
you know, trying to be a, a good
Mormon.

369
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:58,280
But it was very awful.
And growing up, you know, we

370
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,160
were told that the Bishop could
tell if you were lying.

371
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,120
Oh my God.
Yeah, so it it is a mind fuck

372
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:07,920
for sure. 100% like you're
sitting there as a child.

373
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,440
It's like, so I grew up Mormon
but also went to Irish Catholic

374
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,320
school and you know, they would
tell you that your dead

375
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,880
grandmother saw you at all
times.

376
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,160
So if you masturbated she would
see you.

377
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,480
And you know, it's not seem kind
of or to a child where you're

378
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,120
like, they know my thoughts,
like I can't have any privacy

379
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,000
whatsoever.
Yes, that's what we were told

380
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,000
was that Jesus could see all of
your thoughts and was judging

381
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,040
you for them.
Yeah.

382
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:39,880
Yeah.
So even if, you know, you

383
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,440
thought about masturbating or
having sex, that's a sin as

384
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,000
well.
So my God, that was pretty

385
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,440
horrible.
And I feel like I grew up with a

386
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:54,120
lot of shame based on, you know,
just growing up in that toxic.

387
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,200
How surprising, how surprising,
I know.

388
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:03,360
And then also the things that we
were taught in the 12 to 18 year

389
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,880
old thing that they call young
women's.

390
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,280
Young woman.
Young woman.

391
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,520
Preparing you for marriage.
Well, that's exactly what it

392
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,480
was.
Pretty much every lesson was

393
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,040
about the importance of getting
married in the temple, which is

394
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,600
the Super sacred place that
Mormons have that only quote

395
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,360
worthy Mormons are allowed to
end.

396
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,160
Like there's a screening process
to get into it.

397
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,880
There's a card, yeah.
And you have to pay 10% of your

398
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,520
income as part of the questions
for that card.

399
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,000
Right, to qualify for the card.
Wow.

400
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,400
Yes, the card.
The card.

401
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,000
When you say it like this, it's
signed.

402
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,240
So bizarre.
Well, it is bizarre.

403
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:41,200
It is bizarre.
Yeah.

404
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,040
I mean, they have their own
vocabulary.

405
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,920
They call it a temple recommend,
Right.

406
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,680
But it's it's a card.
You got to be a card carrying

407
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,440
Mormon member.
Yeah, to be, to be worthy.

408
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,040
And not all Mormons are right.
Wow, never mind the black Amex

409
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,360
card.
Have you got your recommend?

410
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,920
Well, I mean, that'll get you
into heaven.

411
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,600
Your black card won't do that.
Oh yeah, let's see.

412
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,960
Also, because I was in
California, we did seminary in

413
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,120
the early morning.
So in Utah, this is kind of

414
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:14,920
wild, but people leave school
for an hour to walk across the

415
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,560
street and go to a seminary
building and have an hour of

416
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,960
religious instruction in a day.
But I did it at 6:00 AM in the

417
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,000
morning, my God, every morning
for four years, every morning,

418
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,920
every morning.
Well, every weekday morning,

419
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,720
Monday through Friday.
Wow.

420
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,280
Yeah, commitment.
Well, it was forced, right?

421
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,080
This was not voluntary.
I did not want to do this.

422
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,680
And to call it a seminary, you
know, like old school, like

423
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,680
priests go to a seminary or you
know, but you're putting

424
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,520
children into a seminary and
wow.

425
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 14 through 18.
And it was supposed to be like

426
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,480
extra study of the Mormons
scriptures.

427
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,120
So the Mormons use the Bible,
the Book of Mormon, which

428
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,560
everybody's heard of because of
the musical, right?

429
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,240
Yes.
But then also there's two

430
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,280
additional books of scripture
that Mormons use as well.

431
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,360
So many books.
So many books.

432
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,160
So many books.
Oh my God, lots, lots to read.

433
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,200
I guess that's what takes up,
you know, years of your life in

434
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,040
high school, going to the
seminary.

435
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:23,040
And Speaking of that, like the
more doctrine oriented points,

436
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,920
did you have doubts about it all
when you were growing up?

437
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,840
Or was it just like, I hate
going because I could be hanging

438
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,200
out with my friends?
Or did you ever have moments of

439
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,880
like, excuse me, what night?
Well, there were definitely a

440
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,240
lot of things that rubbed me the
wrong way, so let me just, yeah,

441
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,200
tell you a few things.
Those those interviews, sorry.

442
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,040
Well, yeah, yes, No, they were
very scary and very

443
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,080
inappropriate and I really hated
that.

444
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,840
But it wasn't as a child, that
wasn't enough to be like, oh,

445
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,880
I'm being raised in a cultish
situation, yes.

446
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,400
I don't know if I want to like,
call it a cult outright.

447
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,480
Certainly I think it started
that way.

448
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,920
I don't know what the formal
definition really is, but there.

449
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,800
Meets the formal definition,
like objectively, like not

450
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:13,080
throwing shade at anybody who is
Mormon, but it meets the, the

451
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,480
definitions in terms of like,
you know, exclusivity, like the

452
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,440
temp and there's even like
exclusivity within exclusivity,

453
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,200
like those different tiers of
Mormonism.

454
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,680
So it's, it's not being shady to
call it that.

455
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,200
I think it's just being factual.
OK, Yeah.

456
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,560
You have my permission, Sister
Melissa.

457
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,800
Oh yeah, exactly.
Sorry.

458
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,880
PTSD moment.
Yeah, so I mean, that rubbed me

459
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,440
the wrong way.
It rubbed me the wrong way when

460
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,600
I would hear them talking about
how being gay is a sin.

461
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,720
Yeah.
And this, you know, let's be

462
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,200
clear.
This was in the 80s and early

463
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,280
90s, so most people were very
much in the closet still, I

464
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,960
would say at this point.
That being said, I did have a

465
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,280
couple of friends in high school
that were LGBTQ and and I knew

466
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,200
that and so it did rub me the
wrong way to hear it being

467
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,000
talked about like it was a big
sin.

468
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,640
But this is probably another
difference between Utah and

469
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,560
California.
I feel like that was usually

470
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,960
listed in a long laundry list of
sins.

471
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,120
Like oh, you're not supposed to
be gay, you're not supposed to

472
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:21,600
masturbate, you're not supposed
to have sex before marriage.

473
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,360
And I didn't feel like there was
a ton of hate and vitriol put

474
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:29,080
into it, at least not in my ward
and not by my parents.

475
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,720
We had a neighbors across the
street who were gay, and I

476
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,840
didn't really hear my parents
saying anything negative about

477
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,920
that.
You know, they were friendly

478
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,240
with them and everything.
So that might have been a little

479
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,240
different growing up in
California than Utah.

480
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,000
Right, because that would not
have happened in.

481
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,360
Provo.
Oh, definitely not.

482
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:49,480
I don't think they really could
have been out in the 90s in

483
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,560
Provo.
I don't think so, and maybe

484
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,400
that's why there wasn't so much
rhetoric on it in the church at

485
00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,120
that point too, because as you
say, most people were closeted

486
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,720
at that point.
Yeah, yeah, maybe so.

487
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:08,200
So that was, you know, a little
irritating, but because it

488
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,960
wasn't made a huge deal, at
least not in my ward, then it

489
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,280
didn't.
It wasn't a deal breaker because

490
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,000
I didn't really see the effects
of it at that point.

491
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,800
Yeah.
So that was the thing.

492
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480
It really rubbed me the wrong
way when they would say that

493
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,560
women shouldn't work outside the
home.

494
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,760
That was taught to us explicitly
between the ages of 12 and 18.

495
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,440
And that was a problem for me
because I always felt like I

496
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,600
wanted to have some kind of job
and career and identity.

497
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,520
And also, you know, a bunch of
the people that I knew that were

498
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,360
Mormon, they were working, that
were female, right?

499
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,400
Probably because they had to.
And maybe another California

500
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,400
difference than growing up in
Utah.

501
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,040
That's probably true as well.
I mean, Orange County,

502
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,560
particularly where I grew up, is
a high cost of living area.

503
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,920
So it's quite likely that many
of them you know didn't have the

504
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,840
option to not work.
That's fair.

505
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,400
Yeah, so that was all, you know,
kind of in the background. 01

506
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,560
more thing.
This is great.

507
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,760
I'm sure you've heard this one
before, the idea that the Earth

508
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,040
is 6000 years old.
Oh yeah, yeah, that's an

509
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,040
interesting one.
It is.

510
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,200
And actually it's interesting in
the LDS Church because it's not

511
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,360
necessarily formal doctrine.
Yeah, you actually don't have to

512
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:27,080
believe that.
That's not one of their core

513
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,000
tenets, but a lot of them do.
It kind of comes along for the

514
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,600
ride with a lot of the weird
evangelical parts, I would say.

515
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,440
And I was told that in in young
women's, Yeah.

516
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,920
And I think I, this is one of
the few times I actually spoke

517
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,000
up and said, but we have like a
lot of fossils.

518
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,320
Yeah, right.
You were science girly from

519
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,680
early on.
I was actually like, that

520
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,400
doesn't make no sense.
It doesn't make no sense.

521
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,920
And I was told that two things.
Number one, that all the

522
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,840
dinosaur bones were like
remnants of Noah's flood, which

523
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,000
is patently ridiculous because
if they were, they wouldn't be

524
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,440
arranged nicely in layers that
we can see are the same all over

525
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,960
the world.
Like, oh wow, look at that.

526
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,000
I.
Came back together in one place.

527
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,240
Yeah, so weird.
And then I was also told that,

528
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,400
oh, OK, the dinosaur bones are
there, but they were planted by

529
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,960
Satan to test our faith.
Oh dear God, have you heard that

530
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,000
one?
I have never heard that one.

531
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:28,960
Yes, that is like dark web
manipulation level.

532
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,880
I know so.
I just imagine this little man

533
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,160
running around hiding bones to
to just divert the Mormons

534
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,320
because forget all the other
world problems, we're just here

535
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,000
to deceive over dinosaur bones.
Absolutely.

536
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,240
Isn't that a hilarious image
though?

537
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,000
It is so funny, like the devil
with the shovel likes planting

538
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,920
dinosaur bones.
I counted all these ribs and I'm

539
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,040
going to put them in a row.
Oh my goodness, I know.

540
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,600
So special that's.
I guess Satan really is bad.

541
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,160
I guess they were right.
Yeah.

542
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,840
And then another thing, the
sexual shame was really pretty

543
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,720
heavy.
So that probably is similar to

544
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,480
what I would have experienced
growing up in Utah had I done

545
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,560
so.
But, you know, we were taught

546
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:19,160
explicitly that if you are
raped, if you did not fight,

547
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,840
yeah, basically until you were
dead, that you were partially

548
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:28,480
responsible for that rape.
My God, I cannot even begin to

549
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,640
understand the damage that that
causes to people who are victims

550
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,680
of sexual assault.
Well, it wasn't great when I was

551
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,000
sexually assaulted by one of my
high school teachers.

552
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,000
That did not feel good.
I'm sure it didn't.

553
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,120
I am so sorry that happened.
No thank you.

554
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,160
And also with that inner
monologue about how it was

555
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,280
clearly all your fault.
Yeah, or at least partially my

556
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,600
fault, right?
Because I didn't like fight to

557
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,360
the death.
Yeah.

558
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,320
Isn't that wild?
My God.

559
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,360
Yeah.
So that's your responsibility as

560
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,280
the victim in that situation to
Yeah, yeah.

561
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,960
Not, not ever anything taught
about high.

562
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,560
This person made a really bad
choice.

563
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,800
Right.
And victimized a child.

564
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,400
A child, a person who can't
fight back to the death or

565
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,440
probably isn't even certain
what's happening.

566
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,840
Yeah, that's right.
In the moment, exactly like you

567
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,240
can look back now as an adult
and be like, Oh my God, at the

568
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,080
time you're you're, you're
thinking as a child.

569
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,240
Yeah, and the freeze response is
a powerful thing, right?

570
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,880
You just freeze up sometimes, of
course.

571
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,120
Of course, because you also want
to live, right?

572
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,240
Like that kind of overrides
arguably any other response that

573
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,960
your nervous system is going to
have.

574
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,720
I'm sorry that is just multiple
layers of just not good stuff.

575
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440
Vadnais Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that was part of the reason

576
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,520
I never told my parents about
that.

577
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,320
I never told anyone at church
because clearly it was partially

578
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,120
my fault.
I also didn't tell the principal

579
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,520
and vice principal, but that's
because they were both embroiled

580
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,240
in an A literal court case for
sexually harassing a teacher at

581
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,480
our school.
Oh my God, what was happening in

582
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,200
the 80s?
I mean it early. 90s, but yes,

583
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,760
in the 90s.
And by the way, this is now one

584
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,200
of four or five teachers at that
school that I later found out

585
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,960
had been sexually assaulting
children.

586
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,280
So yeah, that was the whole
thing.

587
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,320
So icky for you and everybody
else.

588
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,480
That's awful.
Absolutely horrible.

589
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,080
And by the way, this is like one
of the more prestigious public

590
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,760
schools in California.
It's not a shit hole.

591
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,800
Supposedly, Yeah.
I sometimes think they are the

592
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,360
worst.
Yeah, I think so.

593
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,720
You can sweep things under the
rug, sometimes more easily.

594
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,960
And it's like, we don't do stuff
like that, right?

595
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,040
Just call it a different posh or
name, yeah?

596
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,320
Yeah, but you asked about
whether I had any doubts, and I

597
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,040
just gave you a list of things
that kind of got under my skin

598
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,800
but not necessarily made me
doubt, at least not in that

599
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,960
moment.
But the one thing that does

600
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,480
stand out is when I was in 7th
grade, actually, yeah.

601
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,440
And in school we were learning
about ancient civilizations, so

602
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,600
Greeks, Romans and notably
Egyptians.

603
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,960
And I got, you know, I was a
very nerdy child.

604
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,760
I got like really excited about
that, totally nerded out about

605
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,920
it to it read a whole bunch of
like stuff about Egypt to do a

606
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,160
class presentation, etcetera,
etcetera.

607
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,080
And so one day I'm sitting in
that sacrament meeting bored out

608
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,800
of my skull as I always was.
And so I'm flipping through the

609
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,440
the scriptures that we have,
right.

610
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,520
And in one of those Mormon
scriptures, they call it the the

611
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,240
Pearl of great price.
I know such an awful thing.

612
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,120
Valuable.
Yeah.

613
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,200
Cringe.
There are illustrations.

614
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:57,640
There are, I believe, 3
illustrations and the mythology

615
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,160
around the origin of this book.
I know you know this, but for

616
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,880
any of our listeners who don't
is that Joseph Smith, the

617
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,600
founder of Mormonism, supposedly
translated the words of Abraham

618
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,800
himself, the Abraham of the Old
Testament, because he purchased

619
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,320
an Egyptian papyrus on which by
an amazing coincidence, Abraham

620
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,360
Abraham had written and the
quote is by his own hand upon

621
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,080
papyrus.
And Joseph Smith then bought

622
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,520
that from a traveling mummy
show.

623
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,560
In the 1800s, Oh my God.
Quote translated it, right.

624
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,320
And it's worth noting that this
is just before the Egyptian

625
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,400
language was decoded, right?
So the Rosetta Stone had not

626
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,840
quite been discovered.
That would have come some number

627
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,120
of years later.
So basically, he could say

628
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,960
anything and there was no nobody
to check.

629
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,920
Yeah, because no one knew how to
read Egyptian hieroglyphics

630
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,560
anyway.
So there are pictures in the

631
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,480
book, 3 pictures that were
copied from the papyrus.

632
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,440
Yeah.
And so I remember sitting in

633
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,800
church fairly vividly.
Yeah.

634
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,800
And looking at these, which I'd
seen before, but I had not, you

635
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,400
know, read anything about
ancient Egypt.

636
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,640
You didn't have your Egypt.
Knowledge exactly.

637
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,440
And so I'm looking at this and
I'm like, this isn't what they

638
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,280
say it is.
It's not my God.

639
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,640
Because there's a legend
explaining it, right, saying

640
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,120
what Joseph Smith had said these
illustrations were.

641
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,440
And I knew very clearly that
that is not what they were.

642
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,080
My God.
And you're what, 12?

643
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,840
Yeah.
OK, yeah, 12.

644
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,440
Yeah.
And so I'm sitting there just

645
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,680
like my whole world is kind of
shaken.

646
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,680
Oh my goodness.
Right.

647
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,800
Yes.
And I actually turned to my mom,

648
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,560
who I was sitting next to in
church, and I was like, look,

649
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,120
this isn't right.
Like what they're saying here.

650
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,520
That's not correct.
Yeah.

651
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,040
And she got very uncomfortable
and she told me to be quiet.

652
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,560
And not talk about it.
So that was it.

653
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,800
So that was it.
So, you know, I was 12 again.

654
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,960
I was a child.
I did not really have the tools

655
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,400
to follow up.
Of course, this is pre Internet,

656
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,400
right?
So I couldn't just go on Google.

657
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:07,760
I couldn't Google it.
Yeah, right.

658
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,920
There were no podcasts.
There was nothing I could go to.

659
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,840
There was nothing in my local
library about it.

660
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,360
I did look actually, but there
was nothing there makes.

661
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,560
Me so sad you're we like you're
re inquiring Bree and like

662
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,159
wanting to just make it right.
Yes, cuz makes sense of it, Yes.

663
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,320
Cuz even we're talking about it
as adults now, but you were

664
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,480
looking at it with a child's
mind being like, no, but they

665
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,280
can't lie to me.
They can't lie.

666
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,040
This is, this is our everything.
Like that's honestly

667
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,320
devastating.
Everyone in my life says this is

668
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,360
correct.
Yes.

669
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,520
And, you know, little did I know
I was looking at one of the big

670
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,159
smoking guns that disproves
Mormonism.

671
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,920
Yeah.
And it was an issue, but I

672
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,000
didn't know what to do with it
at the time, right?

673
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,520
So I kind of put it away.
I didn't forget about it, but I

674
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,240
kind of put it away right now.
I've listened to some ex Mormon

675
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,400
podcasts since leaving the
church.

676
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,680
They weren't available when I
was leaving, but when my first

677
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,080
sibling left the church, I
actually listened to a little

678
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,800
smattering of them.
And they have this analogy that

679
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,920
I really like, which is putting
things on a shelf.

680
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,400
So you have a rickety shelf.
You've heard this, right?

681
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,520
And every problem you have, you,
it's not enough to necessarily

682
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,680
destroy your faith in the
church, but you put the problem

683
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,000
on the shelf, right?
And then you get another one and

684
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,400
you put it on the shelf and then
a third one and a fourth one.

685
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:27,840
And you keep putting things on
the shelf.

686
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,760
But eventually the weight of all
those things is so heavy that

687
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:31,640
the shelf breaks.
It's.

688
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,160
Gonna crash down.
It's.

689
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,080
Gonna crash down, Yeah.
And so I would say that these

690
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,600
were all just things sitting on
my shelf.

691
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,720
Yeah, as as a child, a teenager,
Yeah.

692
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,600
Collecting them all.
Wow.

693
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,720
Yep.
And so anyway, high school

694
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:50,080
continued.
I did a little experimentation

695
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,000
with things you're not supposed
to right that the Mormon church

696
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,000
tells you not to.
Which are actually completely

697
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,360
normal.
As a teen, alcohol and yeah,

698
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,320
some drugs and sex, right?
So that kind of stuff, but not,

699
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,680
you know, all the time.
It was kind.

700
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,680
Of like age appropriate.
It's appropriate

701
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,600
experimentation.
Yeah, definitely.

702
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,440
And I felt horribly guilty, of
course, about all of these

703
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:14,960
things.
Even as I was doing them.

704
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,280
I would feel bad about them.
And eventually I sort of caved

705
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,800
to parental pressure and
enrolled at BYU.

706
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,640
Oh my God, you.
Did so I did.

707
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,960
Why BYU?
Was it just parental?

708
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,520
Pressure.
It really was.

709
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,840
So my parents had both gone to
BYU.

710
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,480
They had met at BYU.
They would talk about it all the

711
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,600
time, like it was this magical
place.

712
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,040
Yeah.
And there were so many Mormons,

713
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,520
My, my mom, because she could
tell that, you know, let's just

714
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,800
say how to say this nicely.
Maybe I just won't say it

715
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,520
nicely.
Yeah, I I mean just it is what

716
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,240
it is.
Yeah, intellectually, I was

717
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,400
pretty far ahead of most of the
people my age that we went to

718
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,080
church with.
And that's not bad.

719
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,960
I, I was wondering what you were
gonna say, but that's probably

720
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,400
fair.
I mean, clearly you had an

721
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,280
inquiring mind.
I did, right.

722
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,520
And so, you know, I would go to
school and there would be a lot

723
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,280
of actually smart people.
I was in the gifted and talented

724
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,520
program, whatever that means,
right?

725
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,720
I mean, now I think that's a
load of garbage, to be honest.

726
00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:18,880
But at the time, you know, yeah,
there's a, there's a lot of, you

727
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,120
know, intelligence kids I was
around, but at church, not quite

728
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,080
as much, right.
And well.

729
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,480
Questions are discouraged,
Absolutely.

730
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,040
Questioning is not supported.
That's right.

731
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,640
And so actually, maybe they were
quite bright and they had been

732
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:32,800
squashed.
Who knows?

733
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,640
Yeah.
You know, who will ever know?

734
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,040
But, you know, my mother could
sort of sense that.

735
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,480
And she kept telling me, well,
BYU is the place to go because

736
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,560
it's like Mormons, but they're
smart and they're driven and

737
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,120
they're ambitious, and you're
going to feel at home there.

738
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,920
Yeah.
And so I.

739
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,440
Who doesn't want?
Yeah, right.

740
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,160
Exactly.
So I was like, all right, maybe

741
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,480
this is gonna like sort of fix
everything that I don't feel

742
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,280
right about.
Yeah.

743
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,200
You know.
Again, that just like makes me

744
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,320
icky.
That's such a pure, you know, I

745
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,640
think a lot of times when people
leave the church, they're like,

746
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,800
you're evil, you're bad.
Like that is so pure.

747
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,120
You just wanted to be around
people you felt up at home with.

748
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,680
It's absolutely, it's very
human.

749
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,600
You know, I don't know about
your experience and, and now it

750
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,600
seems like kind of everybody's
leaving the church, right?

751
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,400
It's very common.
But for the, you know, 1st 10 or

752
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,800
15 years I was out or 20 years
even.

753
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,160
I feel like the ex Mormons that
I met, often times they were

754
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,120
either the people that cared the
most, so the most empathetic

755
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,320
people.
And so the things that rub them

756
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,960
the wrong way was what led them
out.

757
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,160
Or they were the people that
really wanted to dig into the

758
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,480
origin, like the doctrine, the
lore, they really wanted to

759
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,160
understand, and that quest for
understanding LED them right

760
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,800
out.
Yeah, it wasn't even their

761
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,680
intention to begin with.
Absolutely not.

762
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,520
It's usually the people that
were the most into.

763
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,600
It yes, like the opposite and
then kind of like your little 12

764
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,920
year old discovery you're like
wait what nine yeah, pull up you

765
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,360
can yeah that shelf that shelf
is going to groan under the weed

766
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,280
of all that stuff so.
Yeah.

767
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,160
So it sounds like you started
with Great Expectations.

768
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,720
I did.
So what was that like coming as

769
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,600
a wee SoCal girl up to Provo, UT
again?

770
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,240
Like, was it a big change?
Oh, it was such a culture shock.

771
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,920
It was just I didn't even know
what was happening.

772
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,880
And I realized pretty early on
that, you know, most of the

773
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,640
students there were were from
Utah.

774
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,720
Well, not most, but I would say
the the biggest chunk, right?

775
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:38,160
So there were a ton of people
from California.

776
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,800
They have people from all over
the United States and the world.

777
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,120
But the biggest number would
have been from Utah.

778
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,880
And I was like, oh, no, they
really believe that stuff.

779
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,160
OK.
The number of homophobic

780
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,120
comments I would just hear was
really shocking.

781
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,480
And grading this was something I
hadn't totally experienced in

782
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,560
California.
The vitriol around abortion was

783
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,880
quite shocking to me as well.
Yeah.

784
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,520
I mean, and that was another
thing that was on the laundry

785
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,120
list of things that were quite
wrong that I had been exposed

786
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,440
to.
But I hadn't seen that sort of

787
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,920
level of vitriol.
That's really the word directed

788
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,320
at people who might have had an
abortion.

789
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,680
Just made other life choices.
Yeah, so that was really

790
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,840
shocking.
And then also going back to this

791
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:34,840
idea that women shouldn't work.
The first guy I dated at BYU, he

792
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,800
maybe on day three was like,
well, you know, why are you

793
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,280
majoring in?
I think I was majoring in either

794
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,240
molecular biology or just
straight biology at the time.

795
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,000
Why are you majoring in that?
And I was like, because I like

796
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,480
it.
And like, that's kind of what

797
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,400
I'm thinking.
You know, I was thinking of

798
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,600
going to vet school or something
like that.

799
00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,120
And he said, oh, you're going to
love this.

800
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,120
Oh my God.
He said well, when you get

801
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,560
married or when we get married.
On day.

802
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,560
Three.
Yes.

803
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,240
Wow.
When we get married, I'm not

804
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:11,600
going to let you work.
I was like wow.

805
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:13,840
So many things.
Excuse me?

806
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,560
Like where do you even start
with that?

807
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,640
I mean, there's just multiple
layers there.

808
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,000
Yeah.
Wow, you're not going to be

809
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,680
allied.
To work outside the home.

810
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,680
I mean, it just, it seems so
bizarre from the outside looking

811
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,920
in that you're at this academic
institution, but the expectation

812
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,320
is you will never do anything
with your knowledge.

813
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,720
Isn't that crazy?
Because you are not allied.

814
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,120
Yes, that's the really
nauseating part.

815
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,760
Yeah, it was.
And quite nauseating with this.

816
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:51,000
What 19 year old boy?
Was telling me this yes yeah no

817
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,480
Oh my God.
Well that begs the question what

818
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,760
was dating actually like a BYU
like is all the lore like I'm

819
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,920
trying to think all the moves
the Provo float the the I read

820
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,440
something the other day about
the I don't know if it's true

821
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,800
the crabs outbreak in people's
armpits or something.

822
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,920
Oh, I think that's true.
Oh.

823
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,920
My God.
Well, what was what was that

824
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:13,920
like?
And that's how.

825
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,680
I learned the term bagpiping.
What the hell is bagpiping?

826
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,240
I don't even know that one.
Think about what would get you

827
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:23,840
armpit crabs.
Oh, like they're fucking

828
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,360
somebody's armpit.
What?

829
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,720
Oh, it's.
A transfer from the pubic hair

830
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:31,680
to the armpit hair.
That's how you get armpit crabs.

831
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,680
OK well I am enlightened and I
will never look at a bagpipe

832
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,000
this same anymore.
You have bagpipes in Ireland,

833
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,040
right?
They're a little different than

834
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,640
the Scottish ones.
Yeah, we, we've.

835
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,320
Different pipes.
They're they're actually they're

836
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,400
Scottish, but you know, close
enough.

837
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,760
I definitely have heard a lot of
bagpipes, but.

838
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,520
So, like, you hold it under your
arm.

839
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,560
Yeah.
And that's the same idea.

840
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:53,840
They're fucking somebody's arm.
How?

841
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,760
Is that good for anybody?
I mean it's definitely not good

842
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,160
for the person with the armpit,
but like even can.

843
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,640
You imagine.
Like what?

844
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:10,120
How I'm just like trying to
imagine even like how how you

845
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,760
would wow.
OK, cool.

846
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,720
Such a mystery.
Did you?

847
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,920
Experience bike piping when you
were there.

848
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,880
No, Oh my God, I.
Never even heard of that.

849
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,960
I had never heard of it until
that armpit crab outbreak a few

850
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,320
years ago at BYU.
Like just have sex, you know,

851
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,520
just like totally do it.
There's actually a specially

852
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,280
designed things in the body to
help you with you know you don't

853
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:39,600
have.
To go to the armpit.

854
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,400
Oh, you don't.
I mean, right.

855
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,240
So they're not allowed to have
premarital sex.

856
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:47,080
And then everyone's trying to
find some loophole, right?

857
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,080
Because like, let's face it,
when you're in your early 20s,

858
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,560
you're horny as fuck.
Horny as fuck.

859
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,720
And that's normal.
That's normal.

860
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,240
It's OK.
And they tell you you can't

861
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,360
masturbate.
So like, what is it meant to go?

862
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,720
I know, into the armpit
apparently.

863
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:06,200
But wait, like highest the
armpit.

864
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,200
Bagpiping not worse than
masturbating because someone's

865
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,600
seeing it then.
I mean, unclear, right?

866
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,880
The mental gymnastics that get
you to bagpiping are pretty

867
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,880
extreme.
You're like Claire, there is no

868
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,400
logic.
Yeah, just suspend logic and

869
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,200
imagine people fucking armpits.
Right, they OK, cool.

870
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,040
They want to have sex, of
course, right.

871
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,240
And I'm sure probably a lot of
our listeners have heard of

872
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,440
soaking.
Oh, yes, yes.

873
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,400
Yeah.
So I don't remember that really

874
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,400
being a thing when I was at BYU.
I think it might have been after

875
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,280
my time.
But if you haven't heard of it,

876
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,480
that's where you actually do
penetrate the vagina with the

877
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,240
penis.
But as long as you don't, like,

878
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,040
move it back and forth like,
it's fine.

879
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,520
Oh.
My SO.

880
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,080
You're sorry or docking, right?
That's the other word I've

881
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:49,800
heard.
For it.

882
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,240
Oh dear God, what what what
isn't there though?

883
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,760
Can't like your friend come in
and shake the bed for him or

884
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:58,120
something.
Right.

885
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,240
That's the advanced version is
like you have somebody jump on

886
00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,040
the bed for you or be under the
bed and move it or something.

887
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,440
You time it with an earthquake.
Like what?

888
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,440
Like.
Good Lord.

889
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,080
Again, just that signs like so
much.

890
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,880
Work isn't that crazy.
Please just have sex for the

891
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,040
love of God well.
I didn't do any of that.

892
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,760
I mean, I did actually have sex
a little bit later in my BYU

893
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,200
career because at that point I
was like, you know, did you get?

894
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,440
Expelled.
Like, no.

895
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,080
Let me come back to that though,
because I want to talk about

896
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,720
what the loophole.
When I was there, yeah, people

897
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:37,120
would say stay moral, go oral as
if oral sex is fine.

898
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,000
That was the fee is when you
were there.

899
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,640
Right.
Or anal, as long as you don't

900
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,680
put the penis into the pussy.
Isn't that wild?

901
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:50,080
Oh wow, Claire, Can you imagine
as an 18 year old virgin having

902
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,800
anal sex before you've actually
had, you know, penetrated

903
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,440
vaginal sex?
Well, and I would also imagine

904
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,520
that the knowledge wasn't there
in terms of lubrication

905
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,520
etcetera.
Like how?

906
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,960
Oh, injuries.
I'm just thinking injuries.

907
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,960
I mean that shit hurts if you
don't prep.

908
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:14,240
Yes, I'm like, I don't imagine
prep because they didn't.

909
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:18,320
I just have so many questions.
Yes, wow.

910
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,000
It just it seems like it's gone
through eras, yes.

911
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,560
You know, like in the 90s,
that's what it was the early

912
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,600
2000s and and now we've had
soaking.

913
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,280
Yeah, amazing, right?
Do you think maybe one day?

914
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,040
People will just have sex.
Like nor nor I'm like advocating

915
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,880
safe sex and all that, but like,
I mean.

916
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,680
You know, I think a lot of
people were, yeah, right.

917
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,080
Everybody knew that was quote
wrong, that was quote bad.

918
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,000
So all of these other things
were some, you know, attempt to

919
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,600
get around that.
Wow.

920
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,840
Yeah, so that was not great.
And I ended up not dating a ton

921
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,800
at BYU.
I can see why.

922
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,760
Yeah, I.
You're like, I didn't think

923
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,760
that's how it worked.
And also when I do that,

924
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,800
apparently I have to leave my
career hopes behind.

925
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,760
Right.
And see, everything was focused

926
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,320
on marriage from day one, right?
There were, you know, male

927
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,200
students there who had just
returned from their two year

928
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,760
Mormon mission.
Yeah, and then the hot.

929
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,400
Was to get married, right.
And so they would, you know,

930
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,400
sometimes target the 18 year old
freshman, right.

931
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,360
Looking back, doesn't that seem
so awful?

932
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:24,600
Yes.
Yeah.

933
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Oh my God.
Yes, it was.

934
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,400
Not.
Really weird.

935
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,400
I didn't like it.
I wasn't ready to get married.

936
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,320
I knew I wasn't ready to get
married but I had friends,

937
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,480
roommates that would be getting
engaged at age 18/19/20.

938
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,480
Some of them would drop out to
start working and support their

939
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,720
male, you know, husband through
school.

940
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,840
It was just bizarre.
But they must stop immediately

941
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,400
upon his graduation.
So strange.

942
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,080
Yeah.
Wow, it was really weird.

943
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,720
The Mrs. degree people would
talk about that, right?

944
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,120
The Missus.
Missus.

945
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,040
Oh yeah, Mrs. Why I know.
Right, like the the easy ones

946
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,040
were elementary education and
family science.

947
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,280
So you can be a good mother and
wifely.

948
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:09,800
Exactly.
Wow.

949
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:14,000
Women were pretty rare in the
science degrees, so I was

950
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,840
getting.
I would imagine you were one of

951
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:17,520
a few in your.
Classes.

952
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,120
I mean, there were more in
biology than, say, in physics or

953
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
chemistry.
But yeah, we were definitely the

954
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,840
minority.
And you would hear weird

955
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,360
comments about how you know,
women shouldn't apply to Med

956
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,600
school because that was taking a
spot away from a man.

957
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:35,720
Oh wow, yeah, we can't have the
ladies being doctors and shit

958
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:39,600
like that.
Just awful.

959
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:46,040
I mean, wow, it seems like a a
redundant question, you know,

960
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,560
because of our conversation.
But what led to your faith

961
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,840
crisis?
Well, the shelf was getting

962
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,640
pretty heavy already.
The shelf.

963
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,720
Is.
Bulging, yes, absolutely.

964
00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:01,280
It was barely hanging on.
And so, you know, we talked

965
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,920
about some things that weren't
really sitting right with me,

966
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:05,600
right?
The race.

967
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,280
We didn't even talk about the
racism, right?

968
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,480
The fact that black people
couldn't have the Mormon

969
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,720
priesthood till 1978.
I mean, that was pretty hard to

970
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,720
swallow.
That is like beyond

971
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:22,280
comprehension.
And specifically the rationale

972
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,360
that I heard growing up is
because white people weren't

973
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,880
ready, and that's why the BB GS
has withheld it.

974
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,080
So that, yeah, I mean, that's
like multiple layers of white

975
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,480
supremacy.
Yeah, that's that's a lot to

976
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,000
unpack out there.
And it is, it's that's white

977
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,120
supremacy.
This this may offend people, but

978
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,360
yeah, it's systemic white
supremacy.

979
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,760
Right because our feelings as
white people are more important

980
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,320
the the actual rights and
privileges exactly and yeah of a

981
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,440
person of color yeah that's it's
pretty gross.

982
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,680
But yeah you know also racism is
is baked into Mormonism.

983
00:49:58,680 --> 00:49:59,840
It just is.
You can look at in.

984
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,400
The Scriptures, it's in the
Scriptures.

985
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,800
It's a curse.
That's right, a curse on the

986
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,560
skin.
That's right, the Book of Mormon

987
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,320
explicitly says that.
Yep.

988
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:10,440
And so does the Pearl of Grape
price that I just mentioned.

989
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,480
And you can't.
Sugarcoat that you cannot like

990
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,840
it's.
It's right there and it's it's

991
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,520
not good.
It's not good.

992
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:19,080
Yeah.
So this was also sitting on the

993
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,760
shelf along with everything else
I mentioned.

994
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,600
And then a couple of things
happened at BYU.

995
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,640
So BYU was useful actually for
this.

996
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,960
BYU precipitated my faith
crisis.

997
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,320
Isn't that funny?
I know.

998
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,600
Or ironic.
Yeah, Choose the word.

999
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,000
Yeah.
Brought it to a head.

1000
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,600
So my freshman year I enrolled
in a class everyone had to take,

1001
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,480
which was called History of
Civilization.

1002
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,440
Yeah, it was a year long thing
and I think you had to take it

1003
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,000
your freshman or sophomore year
or something.

1004
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,160
Anyway, it was a requirement.
Even as a scientist.

1005
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,320
Yeah.
I mean, it was like our Gen.

1006
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,320
Ed, Yeah, essentially it was one
of those yeah, sort of things.

1007
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,760
So, but you could take different
like variations of it, right?

1008
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,680
Some were focused on different
eras or different themes or

1009
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,640
whatever.
And I took one that was a quote

1010
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,360
honors history of sieve and I
didn't realize when I enrolled,

1011
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,400
but it was Co taught by an
English professor, a sociology

1012
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,840
professor, and a physics
professor, which is kind of

1013
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,360
cool, right?
Good combo learning community.

1014
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,240
Yeah, learning community.
Exactly.

1015
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,720
To use our educational parlance,
yes.

1016
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,760
And the entire year long course
was centered around theodicy.

1017
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,160
OK, so for anyone, I mean I'll
like climbers Odyssey.

1018
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:31,920
No theodicy.
Oh, I was.

1019
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,240
Like, not the Odyssey, the
Odyssey.

1020
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,360
You got Ulysses on the brain.
Oh God.

1021
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:37,360
I.
Really do.

1022
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,600
I'm just like obsessed I because
I was actually thinking, well

1023
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,800
that's cool, but I'm not sure
where they're going with that.

1024
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:52,360
OK, no the word the Odyssey.
So THEODICY.

1025
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,400
As a humanities person, you
probably have a better

1026
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,720
understanding of this than I do,
but I will explain it as I

1027
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,680
experienced.
Yeah, because honestly, I mean,

1028
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:06,240
I we talk a lot about theology
and but I would imagine this is

1029
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:11,400
maybe some kind of interesting
BYU slant that they had to dig

1030
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,240
deep for.
So I'm.

1031
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,560
Actually really interested to
hear it.

1032
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,800
It's not necessarily so.
Theodicy is actually present

1033
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,560
just in philosophy of religion
in general, right?

1034
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:25,600
And it's how a religion or a
belief system deals with the

1035
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,600
problem of suffering.
Huh.

1036
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,280
Yeah, that's super specific.
It is super specific.

1037
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,920
And this is the hook that led me
out.

1038
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:41,000
Not right away, but the idea is
that how could a God be

1039
00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:44,600
omnipotent?
So all powerful, omniscient, all

1040
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:45,480
knowing.
Yeah.

1041
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,640
And Omni, benevolent.
So all good.

1042
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:49,120
Yeah.
If you look around the world,

1043
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,560
you're like, work that doesn't
seem to work.

1044
00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:52,440
Yeah.
Right.

1045
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,360
If you see the suffering that
people are experiencing

1046
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,760
worldwide and you ask how could
a loving God do this?

1047
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,440
Yeah, right.
Or let stuff happen.

1048
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,880
I mean, I'm sure we're asking
ourselves this question every

1049
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,720
time we open up our social media
or the news, right?

1050
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,720
How could a loving God let what
is happening in Gaza happen?

1051
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,680
Yeah, it's, it's a perennial
question of mankind, right?

1052
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,240
We've always wondered.
This yes.

1053
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,400
How?
How can God allow what's

1054
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,240
happening in Sudan to happen?
Right.

1055
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,200
Does it make sense?
So so then the question is, is

1056
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,360
God not all powerful?
Is he not all knowing?

1057
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,160
Because something's got to give,
does he not?

1058
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:30,480
All the things.
Yes.

1059
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,200
Or is he not all good, right.
And so this history of

1060
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,920
civilization class said at the
beginning, well, we're going to

1061
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,120
answer this theodicy or we're
going to give the theodicy from

1062
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,960
the Mormon point of view.
And I was like, oh good, you're.

1063
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,760
Like, I'm so excited.
Finally, I'm going to get some

1064
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:49,680
answers.
Peace.

1065
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,160
Yes, because this is something
that had occurred to me as well.

1066
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:54,400
This is.
The problem, right?

1067
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,520
Of course, I think every human
at some point, whether believe

1068
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,120
it or not, is like, wait, how?
How?

1069
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:03,240
How does all this stuff make
sense together?

1070
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,160
Like where's the Thunderbolt?
100% right, You know, and in the

1071
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,160
90s, we had genocides happening,
right, in places like Rwanda.

1072
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:11,720
Rwanda, right.
Bosnia.

1073
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:14,640
Yeah, yeah.
And so, of course, the question

1074
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,480
occurs to you.
And so we started with like some

1075
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,240
natural theology.
Yeah, which was great.

1076
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:25,880
The kind of signature book for
the first semester was Pilgrim

1077
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,000
at Tinker Creek by Annie
Dillard.

1078
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,160
I don't know if you've ever read
that.

1079
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,680
I What is that?
Oh, it's fantastic.

1080
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,520
She it's.
No, it is like really good.

1081
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,480
It's really good.
It won the Pulitzer Prize for

1082
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,160
nonfiction.
It's not a Mormon book at all.

1083
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,240
OK.
She comes from a different

1084
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,720
spiritual background.
I don't know what it is, but she

1085
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:44,240
does have like a religious
background.

1086
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,200
But it's it's natural theology
which really resonated did with

1087
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,880
me because it's her going
outside looking at plants and

1088
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,440
animals and just like, you know,
writing about some of these

1089
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,000
things.
That's in line with indigenous

1090
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,000
cultures and relationships with
the landscape.

1091
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,600
I can see how you love that.
You're like, this kind of

1092
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,800
actually makes sense now.
I I'm surprised they read it.

1093
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,760
Yeah, I honestly, I mean, BYU at
the time was still trying to be

1094
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,280
very academic.
Yeah.

1095
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:17,400
They were calling themselves,
no, the Harvard of the West.

1096
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,880
You're like, even at the time,
I'm like, oh, honey, that's

1097
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,720
Stanford.
Oh, come on now.

1098
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,360
Be for real.
You're like, no, that's not you.

1099
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:29,800
Yeah.
So they were trying to be

1100
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,880
academically Ivy League
rigorous.

1101
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,000
Yeah, yeah.
So we read some good stuff.

1102
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,480
I took some good classes there.
But you know, one of the things

1103
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,520
that kind of brought up was the
problems that are in natural

1104
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,280
theology, right?
Like if you look at insects,

1105
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,520
yeah, life cycles, you're like,
this doesn't seem like something

1106
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,640
like an Omni benevolent God
would have produced.

1107
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,640
And one of the examples she uses
is one that Darwin actually got

1108
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,800
really hung up on, which is a a
kind of wasp called the igneumon

1109
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:00,440
wasp.
Yeah.

1110
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:04,240
And it's one of many, many,
many, many wasp species.

1111
00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:06,360
Yeah.
They inject their eggs into a

1112
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,560
prey and then the eggs develop
inside and eat the host from the

1113
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,320
inside out.
Well, I mean, where do you put

1114
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,960
that in the abortion debate?
Yeah.

1115
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,360
Like that's Eat the Host.
Yeah, I mean, there's even one

1116
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,360
type of insect she talks about
where the eggs develop in her

1117
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,320
own body.
There's no birth canal and the

1118
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,360
same thing happens the larva up
inside her and eventually eat.

1119
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,600
Her got to get.
Out.

1120
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,560
Yes, yes, wow, yeah.
And so, you know, Darwin

1121
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,560
actually wrote about the Igneman
Wasp and was like, I don't, I

1122
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,280
can't really reconcile this
with, you know, God.

1123
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,080
Wow, so maybe it was a shrouded
warning to women.

1124
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:45,440
Yeah, maybe.
I don't know.

1125
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,880
So we read that, and then the
second semester we read The

1126
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,560
Brothers Karamazov by
Dostoyevsky.

1127
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,920
Yeah, which I'm sure you've read
sometime in the distant past,

1128
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,240
probably.
And again, so surprised that

1129
00:56:57,240 --> 00:57:00,080
they actually did that.
Well, again, academically

1130
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,440
rigorous.
Yeah, trying.

1131
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,720
And if you remember the Brothers
Karamazov at all, there's kind

1132
00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:09,920
of the the middle sort of bit
about religion, right?

1133
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,240
The Grand Inquisitor is the
famous bit.

1134
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,040
But the part that really set me
back on my heels was a

1135
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,040
conversation between the two
brothers, right?

1136
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,080
1 is a priest and one is they
call him an atheist.

1137
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:26,480
And the atheist brother, Yvonne
asks the younger brother,

1138
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,840
Alyosha, I think his this name.
You know, they have this

1139
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,040
theological discussion.
The priest is trying to convert

1140
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,680
him back.
And he's saying, look, I can't,

1141
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,360
and here's why.
And he tells all these horrible

1142
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,080
stories of children suffering,
in many cases, suffering

1143
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:44,720
inflicted by their parents.
Yeah.

1144
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:49,880
And just horrible stories.
And that's suffering by choice

1145
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,920
of adults, right?
And so and and perpetrated on

1146
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,800
children who are innocent,
right?

1147
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,680
It's not like a natural disaster
or something you've no control

1148
00:57:58,680 --> 00:57:59,840
over.
Right.

1149
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,320
And then he asked his brother,
if you were designing the world

1150
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,720
essentially, I'm paraphrasing,
right, and you could save all of

1151
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:13,840
humanity, but one single child
had to suffer like this, would

1152
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:14,720
you do it?
Huh.

1153
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:22,120
OK, I see where you're going.
Yes, and in the book the priest

1154
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,000
brother says no.
Yeah, I wouldn't.

1155
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,720
Cuz it's one person.
Because it's immoral.

1156
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,920
Yeah, it's bad.
Yeah.

1157
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:35,640
And so his point, I mean, I
guess you get the point.

1158
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,960
But like the, you know, that
resonated.

1159
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,160
And then the atheist brother,
he's like, look, I'm not even

1160
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,920
saying that God doesn't exist.
I'm not even saying that that's

1161
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,240
a thing.
He's like I say, I don't accept

1162
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,480
this.
Yeah, it's fair.

1163
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,600
Yeah.
I I still can't believe that

1164
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,400
they'd like you.
Isn't that crazy?

1165
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,680
I know.
Because like, I think you have a

1166
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:01,840
very normal response to that
part of the book, you know, and

1167
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:07,760
to even raise anything like that
as an option, I just, I can't.

1168
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,520
I'm just like, how did other
people take that?

1169
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:15,000
Well, I don't know, it was wild
actually to read that and then

1170
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,680
come to class, right?
And cuz you're like, but wait,

1171
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,480
OK, how are we gonna like
resolve this?

1172
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,400
Right.
And, and the phrase that Yvonne

1173
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,160
uses in the book is he's like, I
simply look at this and I give

1174
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:31,440
my ticket back.
Yeah, I that's when you got your

1175
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:32,080
ticket.
I do your.

1176
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:36,200
Pocket I'm like, so I'm holding
my give it to in class and I'm

1177
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,960
like, so we're giving our
tickets back, right, right.

1178
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,080
That's what you wanted us to
take from this book.

1179
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,760
Right.
And, and I know it is because

1180
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,200
then we also had to read a short
story by Ursula Le Guin.

1181
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,560
Oh my God.
Yeah, Who's fantastic, by the

1182
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,320
way.
Yeah, but the story is called

1183
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,400
The Ones Who Walk Away from
Omalas, and it's essentially

1184
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,000
focused on this exact same
thing.

1185
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,160
It's it's, you know, in response
to Brothers K and it's the same

1186
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:02,080
thing, right?
Yeah.

1187
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,960
Well, so like, do you think you
had some kind of a one of those

1188
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,000
professors was trying to slip
you a favor by choosing these

1189
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,200
texts?
Or all three of them, maybe, I

1190
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,360
don't know, isn't that
interesting to think about

1191
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,640
because.
I It's not making sense to me

1192
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,400
that that would be what they
would have you read to support

1193
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,640
the contradictions that you're
being.

1194
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,280
Fed otherwise, right.
And I thought we would, like,

1195
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,000
get in there and they would be
like, OK, now, like, we're going

1196
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,240
to explain this.
And they didn't.

1197
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,080
We discussed it.
I don't totally remember what

1198
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,880
all of my, you know, brainwashed
fellow students said, but I

1199
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,720
remember walking away completely
unsatisfied.

1200
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:42,680
Yeah, right.
And from the whole class I was

1201
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,480
like, hey wait, we didn't
actually come up with an answer.

1202
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,240
Yeah, you didn't.
I was waiting.

1203
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:53,480
And again, I love that you tell
this story like this because I

1204
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:58,840
think a lot of time, a lot of
times people are vilified like

1205
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,560
that.
You have some evil intent.

1206
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Yours was so pure and like, I
would imagine so typical in

1207
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,280
terms of like, just just make
this make sense, make this be

1208
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,400
OK.
Like, because you, you gave me a

1209
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,480
book to read and it's actually
like destabilizing me more,

1210
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:17,880
right?
When are you going to answer

1211
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,120
this for me?
Or is this to show me that?

1212
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,480
No, like we're going to wrap it
up in a nice little bow for you

1213
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,200
at the end of the semester.
And they did not.

1214
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,120
And, and I give them credit for
not doing that.

1215
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,440
I give them credit for making us
read those things and and being

1216
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,280
exposed to that hard question.
And sitting with them.

1217
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:40,240
Yeah, and I did sit with it and
I I couldn't make it make sense.

1218
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,120
Yeah, You know, that's fair,
right?

1219
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,280
I mean, the Mormons have their,
their sort of bullshit

1220
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,560
explanation for it.
Forgive my language, but you

1221
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,680
can.
Swear that warrants it.

1222
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,200
Right.
But it kind of, it occurred to

1223
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:58,080
me, like, what reward in the
afterlife, Yeah, would be worth

1224
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,200
torturing children, Yeah.
The the trade off so that

1225
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:03,920
you're.
OK, right.

1226
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,080
Yeah, there could be another
system.

1227
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,480
If you are an omnipotent God,
surely you could come up with

1228
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,640
something better.
That would make total sense to

1229
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:15,080
me, right?
Like.

1230
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:18,720
I yeah, I would.
So then you're kind of left with

1231
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:23,560
a couple of options.
Either there is no God, or there

1232
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,960
is a God and he's evil.
And he's not nice.

1233
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,360
Right.
Yeah, which the Bible supports

1234
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:34,040
that ladder point of view.
Right, well, and no shade on God

1235
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:40,160
if he she exists, they you know,
it's it's the the image of God

1236
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,920
that you're fed, right?
That's not very nice.

1237
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,920
Right.
Certainly the God of the Bible

1238
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,200
and the Book of Mormon is not a
loving God.

1239
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:54,320
Wrathful, vengeful orders.
Genocides, perpetrates

1240
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,760
genocides.
Orchestrates all the things,

1241
01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,360
yeah.
Right.

1242
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,680
Yeah.
So that was a lot.

1243
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:06,360
Yeah.
And then that kind of SAT for a

1244
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,360
minute.
I thought about transferring

1245
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,960
away from BYU because I was
almost at my breaking point.

1246
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,360
Not quite.
But, you know, I went away for

1247
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,680
the summer.
I came back, I kind of shelved

1248
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:17,960
it.
Was trying to just get through

1249
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,840
my classes and.
And really at this point,

1250
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,280
struggling with almost crippling
depression because of this very

1251
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,240
issue.
Yeah, really, nothing else in my

1252
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:31,160
life was going wrong, but this
feeling of isolation and

1253
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:36,280
alienation and being embedded in
a religion that I was not yet

1254
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,160
ready to say wasn't true, but
that felt evil and unfriendly to

1255
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:40,920
me.
Yeah.

1256
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:45,160
And you're trying to reconcile
like trusting your intuition,

1257
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:50,360
trusting what's going on inside
versus I mean, it's your family,

1258
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,960
it's your community, it's, it's
so big.

1259
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:54,840
It's so big, it's.
So big.

1260
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,760
And let me say one more time,
this was the 90s.

1261
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:02,360
I knew exactly 0 people that had
left the Mormon church.

1262
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,520
Yeah, like, again, that's weird
to say now because it's so

1263
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:07,360
common.
Yeah, we all know many, many,

1264
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,400
many, many ex Mormons now,
right?

1265
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,640
Because the Internet showed us
things, right?

1266
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:14,200
Online communities?
Yeah.

1267
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:18,080
Gathering spots like how?
How do you find that?

1268
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,880
Like you're Because I'm sure you
weren't the only person felt

1269
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,720
that way, but who is verbalizing
this?

1270
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:25,920
No one and fear of.
Something.

1271
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,480
Yeah, this isn't the.
Very kind of beginning of the

1272
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,240
Internet being widely, widely
available, right?

1273
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,880
So like, I had an e-mail address
that I never used hilariously,

1274
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,800
because we didn't really know
what to do with them at that

1275
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,880
point.
And you had to put in like codes

1276
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:41,920
and like, yeah.
Yeah.

1277
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,360
And so even at the time, once I
started searching, maybe my

1278
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,120
junior year, yeah, there was one
ex Mormon website,

1279
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:54,480
reallyexmormon.org, which had
really at that point probably

1280
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,440
less than 100 stories from other
people who had left.

1281
01:04:57,600 --> 01:04:59,200
Wow.
And that was it.

1282
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,280
That was all I could find.
Oh my goodness.

1283
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,960
Yeah, there was one bookstore in
Salt Lake City, as I understand

1284
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,640
it, run by a couple named Gerald
and Sandra Tanner.

1285
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,040
I never went there.
I never met them, never had

1286
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,560
anything to do with that.
But like, they were trying to

1287
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,720
spread the good word.
And then there was this one

1288
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:17,920
website that was all the
resources.

1289
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,440
Oh, my goodness.
I'm aware of that existed.

1290
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:22,640
At this time, that's like
unimaginable, right at this

1291
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:23,840
point.
Isn't that crazy?

1292
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,600
Well, did you feel like you
could ask your parents?

1293
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,600
No.
You're just like, no, I

1294
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:33,120
remembered what happened when I
was 12 and yeah, just no.

1295
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,240
I mean, eventually, of course,
yes, you know, that had to get

1296
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,720
brought up, but not to, like,
kind of got to the breaking

1297
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:39,120
point.
Yeah.

1298
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,000
So let me skip ahead to how that
happened.

1299
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,560
And guess what?
It was another BYU professor.

1300
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:45,640
Really.
Yeah.

1301
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,320
And this one, I'm fairly sure,
knew what was up.

1302
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,200
Yeah.
I'm not sure about the freshman

1303
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:50,880
ones.
Right.

1304
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,960
Although I have to imagine,
like, there was something there

1305
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:55,480
based on what we just talked
about.

1306
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,720
Yeah.
But this one I was taking, I

1307
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,520
think it was a bioethics course
from him actually.

1308
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:06,080
And this is pedagogically
probably not super appropriate

1309
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,280
because this isn't necessarily
related to bioethics.

1310
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,480
But he, oh, actually, no, it
wasn't bioethics.

1311
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,760
It was something else, but it
was embedded within the biology

1312
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,040
department.
He kept bringing up Mormon

1313
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:20,160
history and Mormon science.
Yes.

1314
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,480
Why?
Well, here's what I think the

1315
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,800
connection probably was.
You know, science as a

1316
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,680
discipline is really a method
for understanding our universe.

1317
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,360
It's not a collection of of
pieces of knowledge or facts or

1318
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,600
anything like that.
It's a method for, you know,

1319
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:43,440
gathering empirical evidence and
coming up with hypotheses or

1320
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,600
theories to describe how the
world works.

1321
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,840
And so I think his angle on that
or the way he was Trojan horsing

1322
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:55,320
this in, if I may, was that you
have to look at everything with

1323
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:57,800
an eye for evidence.
OK.

1324
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:02,040
And so here's the connection.
The Book of Mormon makes some

1325
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,600
very specific, what John Dolin
would call truth claims.

1326
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,320
Yeah.
John Dolin is the host of the

1327
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,720
Mormon Stories podcast.
Like the leader of the ex Mormon

1328
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:12,880
people.
Yeah, I mean, it feels like.

1329
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,200
He's like the Moses of the ex
Mormons.

1330
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,760
Have you ever met him?
No, I've maybe been at events

1331
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,120
because I did do a lot of events
post Mormon.

1332
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,560
Have you met him?
I've seen him around town a few

1333
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,040
times.
I haven't actually spoke to

1334
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:27,640
spoken to him.
Yeah, me neither.

1335
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:28,440
Yeah.
Yeah.

1336
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:34,640
Anyway, So what he would call
these things truth claims.

1337
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:36,640
So Mormonism makes certain
claims.

1338
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,080
Yeah.
And you could test these claims

1339
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:40,840
with evidence.
And so I think that's where this

1340
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:42,440
professor was sort of coming
from.

1341
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,640
Yeah.
And you know, some of the things

1342
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,920
that the Book of Mormon claims
are that the people that lived

1343
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:53,640
here in the Americas, so North
and South America, were

1344
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,960
descended from Jews, right, who
left Jerusalem in 600 BC

1345
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,680
approximately before it was
destroyed, sailed across an

1346
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,840
ocean on a boat that they made.
Just as you do.

1347
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:09,080
As you do.
And then settled the new world,

1348
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:10,880
right?
Why kind?

1349
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:12,560
Right.
And then some of them, of

1350
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,800
course, had their skins turn
dark as a curse or a punishment,

1351
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,240
Right.
And those people would have been

1352
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:20,160
the ancestors of the Native
Americans.

1353
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,279
This is what the Book of Mormon
says.

1354
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:24,680
I Yeah, I know.
Right.

1355
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,560
Try to stop yourself from
throwing up in that trash can

1356
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:28,359
over there.
Well.

1357
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:30,640
Because it's like you don't get
taught that part in some of

1358
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,319
these school necessarily.
I mean, obviously it's well, but

1359
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:37,319
it's in the book.
But I my experience was never

1360
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:41,960
hearing it in those.
It was just, it was put into a

1361
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,439
pretty story.
We were taught that.

1362
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,120
You're like, we were taught the
hard.

1363
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:47,359
Truth.
Yeah, yeah.

1364
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:49,240
And it and it says that.
It says that in the Book of

1365
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:53,359
Mormon explicitly.
I mean, it's, it's very manifest

1366
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:55,399
destiny, right?
So there's that.

1367
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,359
And then it also claims that
these people had domesticated

1368
01:08:58,359 --> 01:09:04,800
horses, that they had, you know,
achieved steel making.

1369
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:07,880
So their metallurgy was way
ahead of the rest of the world I

1370
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,920
guess this time, right?
Yeah, just the Mormons knew

1371
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:14,240
though.
Yeah, they had Chariots, right?

1372
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,439
Like a bunch of stuff that just
isn't true.

1373
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:22,040
It's just not even close to
truth, Right.

1374
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,080
So.
And quite provable, actually.

1375
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,760
Quite provable, Right.
So you know the Spanish brought

1376
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:31,240
horses.
Yeah, there wasn't metallurgy at

1377
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:33,680
that level happening in the
early Americas.

1378
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:36,279
There's no archaeological fines
for that whatsoever.

1379
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:38,120
No Chariots.
No Chariots.

1380
01:09:38,399 --> 01:09:41,560
The Book of Mormon actually
describes a battle in which 2

1381
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,880
million people are killed down
to the last man.

1382
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:46,720
Like which?
First of all, that's not how

1383
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:48,520
battles work.
No at all.

1384
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:49,240
No.
Right.

1385
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:52,920
We know this from history.
Yeah, but secondly, 2 million

1386
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,080
people.
Then yes, I mean in population

1387
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:57,960
numbers.
Yeah, that's not reasonable.

1388
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:01,640
But also, we'd have remains if
there was a civilization of this

1389
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,240
size, yes, that was just
eradicated.

1390
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:07,600
There would be clues, Right.
But then also.

1391
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,320
And then I guess here's the
biology tie in.

1392
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:11,920
Yeah.
The claim that Native Americans

1393
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:14,000
are descended from Jews is
ludicrous.

1394
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,760
Yeah, we have DNA.
We can.

1395
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,080
We know it's not true.
We know it's not true.

1396
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,800
We can trace the migration of
people.

1397
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:22,760
We can do mitochondrial and Y
chromosome haplotyping.

1398
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:27,080
Yeah, and and we know the origin
of of these people and it's not

1399
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:32,160
Jerusalem.
And and why, pray tell, does no

1400
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:37,080
one else have that seed, that
nugget of knowledge in scare

1401
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,680
quotes?
But, you know, like, why?

1402
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,560
Just why?
I can't think of another word at

1403
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:45,320
this point.
Just like, why?

1404
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,800
Yeah.
So, you know, that was something

1405
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:52,480
I was learning about in college,
and that one was a big one.

1406
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:54,200
You talk about putting things on
the shelf.

1407
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,480
My whole degree is in biology.
I know how DNA works.

1408
01:10:57,480 --> 01:10:59,680
Yeah.
I know how to make a a

1409
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,080
phylogenetic tree, right?
Retracing the evolutionary

1410
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:08,640
history of, you know, a group,
and that it's just not true.

1411
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,280
That's why that boy didn't want
you to be doing your studies, I

1412
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,680
guess.
So and so you're like, well,

1413
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:18,200
then then the Book of Mormon
isn't true, which is a

1414
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,720
cornerstone of the Mormon faith.
Yeah.

1415
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:26,160
And then, you know, he also
brought some problematic things

1416
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:29,320
about Mormon history, like the
Mountain Meadows Massacre.

1417
01:11:29,480 --> 01:11:30,640
That's a big one.
That's a.

1418
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,320
Big one, we can talk about that
some other time.

1419
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:36,960
Or you know, you can read Under
the Banner of Heaven.

1420
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:38,640
Fantastic book.
Oh my God.

1421
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:39,800
So good.
So good.

1422
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:44,200
Yeah.
And then he also brought up the

1423
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,080
Egyptian thing.
So it's coming full circle.

1424
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:48,200
OK.
We're we're getting to the end

1425
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,760
here of this faith crisis.
Yes, so that.

1426
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,280
The DNA part shook me to my
core.

1427
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,480
Yeah.
And then the Egyptian thing came

1428
01:11:55,480 --> 01:12:00,040
back out to play because it
turns out that the original

1429
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:05,200
papyrus that Joseph Smith
supposedly translated was

1430
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,880
recovered.
It's still at least part of it

1431
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:10,840
exists, and it is in the
Smithsonian Museum.

1432
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,640
Not in his.
Drawer.

1433
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,840
No.
Well, I mean, this is, I mean,

1434
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:19,760
maybe part of it the Mormon
Church has.

1435
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,680
But this is going back to Mormon
history that we don't have to

1436
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:23,800
get into.
Right?

1437
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,360
Like, Nabu was burned.
At least part of it was burned.

1438
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:28,200
This was recovered.
Yeah.

1439
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:29,600
OK.
And then sent to the

1440
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,720
Smithsonian.
It matches the illustrations

1441
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:33,880
exactly.
Right.

1442
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:35,760
But then there's some of the
text with it.

1443
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:39,000
And now we can read ancient
Egyptian.

1444
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:42,360
We know.
We know what it actually says.

1445
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:46,080
We are in a post Rosetta Stone
world and it turns out that this

1446
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:48,640
papyrus.
Are you telling me it's not

1447
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:52,040
going to match?
Spoiler alert, Claire, brace

1448
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,040
yourself.
No, but it turns out that this

1449
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,880
is just a very standard funerary
text, right?

1450
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,400
It's a book of breathings that
was buried with Egyptian people.

1451
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:02,640
It's just what they.
Did.

1452
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:05,200
Yep.
And so the illustrations that I

1453
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:08,120
knew were wrong at age 12, yeah,
are wrong.

1454
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:10,400
Oh my God.
And we have the source material.

1455
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:12,160
It's right there.
It's right there.

1456
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,680
And Abraham did not write it by
his own hand on papyrus.

1457
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:20,120
And so at this point, I'm up
against a wall.

1458
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:21,360
Right.
What can you do?

1459
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,400
The shelf is now hanging by a
thread.

1460
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,160
Yeah.
And the only question I had left

1461
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,240
at this point was, are these
things that my professor is

1462
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:30,840
telling me accurate?
Yeah.

1463
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:32,880
Right.
Because we, like, Again, I took

1464
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:34,600
the scientific training
seriously.

1465
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:36,240
Right.
Just because someone says it

1466
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:37,440
doesn't make it.
True, it doesn't make it.

1467
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:40,560
True, you need to go and and
find the original stuff.

1468
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:44,040
Yeah.
So, so this story ends, or

1469
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:49,240
perhaps begins, with me in the
BYU library requesting access to

1470
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:50,880
the Rare Books Room.
Oh my.

1471
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,320
Goodness.
Yes.

1472
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:56,440
And requesting access to some of
the sources that were mentioned.

1473
01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:59,440
Yeah.
About the Egyptian stuff, about

1474
01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:03,240
the Mountain Meadows Massacre
and receiving those.

1475
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:04,960
So you have to go into a special
room.

1476
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:06,320
Yeah.
And they bring them to you,

1477
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:07,680
right?
Like in a bin.

1478
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,920
Yeah.
And then you are allowed to look

1479
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:11,920
at it, not take it out of the
room.

1480
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,800
Yeah, and so I did.
And it turns out that everything

1481
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,400
that this professor had told me
was 100% accurate.

1482
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,440
Wow.
And the documents in the BYU

1483
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:24,400
library confirmed it.
They're right there.

1484
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,040
They're hidden in plain sight.
Hidden in plain sight.

1485
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:28,880
Ever.
Wow.

1486
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:33,520
Yeah, and so I was sitting in
the BYU library rare books room

1487
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:36,760
as my entire childhood crashed
down around my ears.

1488
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:38,880
The shelf broke.
Everything fell to the ground.

1489
01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:42,000
God yes, I I knew it wasn't
true.

1490
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:43,920
Oh my goodness.
And it's.

1491
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,440
All right there, yeah.
All right there.

1492
01:14:46,440 --> 01:14:49,840
Yeah.
I'm like, I have such just care

1493
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,280
and compassion for your we
inquiring mind, you know, and

1494
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,920
again, it's so purely motivated,
right, because you're like, I

1495
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,200
just want to know.
I just like, I just I like, I

1496
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:02,040
would imagine not to put words
in your mind that you were

1497
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:06,200
hoping maybe for a different I
come like you were hoping, maybe

1498
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:09,360
somewhere.
Because then like you say, that

1499
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:11,960
starts a chin reaction.
Yeah.

1500
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,720
If that's not true, then.
Who are you?

1501
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:16,920
What are you doing with your
life?

1502
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,440
I mean, you're at a church.
School.

1503
01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:22,880
Yes, like it's everything.
My entire family is Mormon.

1504
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,640
Not a single person I know has
left the Mormon Church.

1505
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:30,320
And yet in that moment, I knew
that there was no future for me

1506
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,520
in the Mormon Church.
And I think my BYU professor had

1507
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:37,440
lost his faith and was
disguising it for reasons of his

1508
01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:39,240
marriage and his employment.
Yes.

1509
01:15:39,480 --> 01:15:42,960
And his social status.
And I just knew that wasn't an

1510
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:43,960
option for me.
Yeah.

1511
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:48,040
He was like, it's like he was
feeding those little Nuggets to

1512
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:51,880
you all to save yourself for
some of you hopefully to go

1513
01:15:52,480 --> 01:15:55,040
wait, what?
Cuz yeah, like you can

1514
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,920
understand why he would stay to
spare his family and all that.

1515
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,280
But you're like, I don't want
that life.

1516
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:04,200
Yeah, I don't want that life.
Well, and also, I just can't,

1517
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:05,800
right?
At that point, it was simply no

1518
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,200
longer an option.
I can't pretend it's true, no,

1519
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:10,520
And I can't continue going to
church.

1520
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:12,680
The mask is off.
The mask is off.

1521
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,560
What did you do after that?
God, it was rough.

1522
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,400
Because at this point, if I had
transferred to a different

1523
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:21,840
school, I would have had to
retake a bunch of things.

1524
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:23,440
Yeah.
And I should have.

1525
01:16:23,480 --> 01:16:27,720
I should have just done that.
But you know, when you're 2021,

1526
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,840
yeah, it's hard for you to
really know what's important and

1527
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:34,560
what's not.
And so I stayed for another, I

1528
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:37,000
think, year and a half, and I
finished my degree.

1529
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:39,880
I'd be with you and I almost got
kicked out several times.

1530
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:43,760
To answer your question, yeah,
mostly because of my lack of

1531
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:48,240
church attendance.
What they would throw you out

1532
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:49,840
for that?
Oh yeah, you had to have an

1533
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:55,040
interview with your your Bishop
every year and he had to re sign

1534
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:57,520
what they call your
ecclesiastical endorsement

1535
01:16:57,720 --> 01:16:59,880
saying that you're still worthy
to attend BYU.

1536
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,600
Wow.
And so, and actually for three

1537
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:06,480
years in a row, I got in trouble
for my spotty to non existent

1538
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:08,040
church attendance.
Oh, my God.

1539
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:11,400
And every year I would come up
with a sob story about how I had

1540
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:14,680
to work on Sundays or about how
a family member was there, like,

1541
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:16,440
whatever.
I would just say anything.

1542
01:17:16,440 --> 01:17:19,000
Yeah.
And then, you know, it convinced

1543
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,200
them every time.
Once I got in trouble for a boy

1544
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:25,000
sleeping over at my apartment
cuz yeah, roommates were home.

1545
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,400
I didn't think they were.
You saucy minx.

1546
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:32,080
Yeah, so you know, wow, I spun a
quick story about that too.

1547
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:36,720
And stay to my cousin.
Yeah, something like that,

1548
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:38,640
anyway.
Yeah.

1549
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:46,080
So I graduated, and then I left
Utah, left BYUI, moved to San

1550
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:50,920
Francisco for Graduate School.
This explains why you love San

1551
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:52,680
Francisco so much.
I do.

1552
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,200
I really love it.
And I have to tell you, Clara, I

1553
01:17:55,200 --> 01:18:01,560
moved there in August to start
school, got a studio apartment,

1554
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:05,360
Yes.
Was attending classes.

1555
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:09,680
And I think my maybe second
weekend after school started

1556
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,720
something like that.
It was within the first month I

1557
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:14,640
was sitting in the Castro
district.

1558
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:18,000
OK, so like the epicenter of the
gay rights movement in

1559
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,520
California, and it was Folsom
Fest.

1560
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:23,600
Do you know what Folsom is?
I don't know what that is.

1561
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:25,320
Okay.
Folsom Leather Fest.

1562
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:28,600
It's like a giant sex party.
Basically.

1563
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:32,760
It's like a giant fetish party.
You're so BYU sell.

1564
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:34,920
I know.
So I'm sitting at brunch.

1565
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:39,840
I'm watching people walk by.
Some people are naked, lots of

1566
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,920
people walking by in various
leather get ups.

1567
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,440
And I was like, you know what?
This is kind of awesome.

1568
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:46,920
You're like, I like this.
Yeah.

1569
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:48,800
I feel at home.
I feel all right with this.

1570
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:51,600
I feel way more at home here
than I ever did at BYU.

1571
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,440
Wow.
And so that is, yeah, why San

1572
01:18:54,440 --> 01:18:56,640
Francisco has such a soft spot
in my heart.

1573
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:57,800
Yeah.
I love it that.

1574
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,560
Makes total sense, Nye.
So wait.

1575
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:04,120
Hi.
Why why are you back here?

1576
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:05,640
Oh.
Goodness, I know.

1577
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:07,920
Yeah.
So I finished my master's degree

1578
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,760
in San Francisco.
It was right, like at the height

1579
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:12,360
of the, the tech boom.
Yeah.

1580
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:16,400
And then kind of right as the,
you know, tech crashed as well.

1581
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:19,840
So things were expensive.
Just ludicrously expensive.

1582
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,360
I was barely getting by.
I had a graduate fellowship.

1583
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:25,440
Yeah.
And then my last semester I had

1584
01:19:25,440 --> 01:19:27,880
a scholarship and I was I could
barely eat.

1585
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:29,880
I would imagine friend was so
expensive.

1586
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:33,760
And so when I finished, I
thought, well, I'll move back.

1587
01:19:33,760 --> 01:19:35,520
My parents had actually since
moved to Utah.

1588
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,520
So they had moved away from
Southern California.

1589
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,200
Yeah, they moved to Utah.
Their parents were getting old.

1590
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:43,760
My dad had a really good job
offer and it was where they were

1591
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:46,000
from.
So they moved to Bountiful, UT,

1592
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:48,800
and so I came back here.
I got a job.

1593
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,160
My plan was to save up money for
a couple years and then move

1594
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:53,080
away.
Yeah.

1595
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:56,240
And, you know, Long story short,
I met some when I got married.

1596
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:57,600
I had a kid.
I never left.

1597
01:19:57,800 --> 01:19:59,840
Did all that stuff.
You know you know how it goes.

1598
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:01,320
That happens.
It does.

1599
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:04,360
That absolutely happens.
Wow.

1600
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:08,240
So back here, back where you
started as the next Mormon, as

1601
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:10,800
the next that.
Well, you know, it's fine if you

1602
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:12,520
stay in that Salt Lake bubble,
right?

1603
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,640
Because there's a lot of.
And by the time I moved back,

1604
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,040
more people were starting to
leave the church.

1605
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:21,640
But then also, I was working,
first of all, at a biotech

1606
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:23,320
company.
And then I went back and got my

1607
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,320
PhD.
And there are not very many

1608
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:29,720
Mormons in science.
Yeah, there were a few, but most

1609
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,080
of the people I interacted with,
we're not Mormon, had never been

1610
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,800
Mormon, you know, came from all
over the world.

1611
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:37,400
Actually.
I worked with a bunch of

1612
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:39,360
Europeans.
I worked with a bunch of people

1613
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:43,360
either from Asia or of Asian
descent, right, who had just

1614
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:46,280
ended up in Utah.
Because academics and science

1615
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:48,680
can take you to weird places.
They can take you to very weird.

1616
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,800
Places, yes.
So even though I was here, I was

1617
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:54,040
kind of insulated from most of
the Mormon stuff.

1618
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:56,960
It was really just family that
was the Mormon connection at

1619
01:20:56,960 --> 01:20:59,880
that point and.
Is all the family still in?

1620
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:01,600
Like how did they take it?
Great.

1621
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:04,800
Question.
Yeah, my parents were not happy

1622
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:08,280
to say the least.
My my dad and I had some knock

1623
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:12,200
down drag out arguments over the
whole, you know, leaving the

1624
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:15,520
church thing.
My mom cried, which is worse,

1625
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:18,240
you know, than dad yelling.
Yep.

1626
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,920
And but like there I just had no
choice at this point.

1627
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:24,640
Like I I couldn't pretend like I
said.

1628
01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:27,520
So it just was what it was.
Yeah, thankfully they did not

1629
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:31,240
disown me, which I I do know
people subsequently who were cut

1630
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,760
off from their families because
they left the church and other

1631
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:37,040
cult like behavior.
Yeah, but thank goodness my

1632
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:41,480
family didn't do that.
And so basically we just didn't

1633
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:47,680
talk about it for. 20 years,
just a short amount of time, you

1634
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:50,120
know, just a couple decades,
just a wee minute.

1635
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:53,600
Yeah.
Wow, that must have been hard

1636
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:55,440
though.
I mean, it was pretty hard.

1637
01:21:55,440 --> 01:21:59,760
I felt isolated, but you know, I
still felt pretty close, at

1638
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:02,200
least to my siblings.
Yeah, you know, my parents.

1639
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:04,560
That's a whole different episode
we could talk about.

1640
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:08,520
I mean, we're we're close, ish.
But yeah, close to my siblings.

1641
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:10,560
We just didn't discuss it.
Yeah.

1642
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:16,840
And then in, I think it was
2017, the Mormon church came out

1643
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:20,720
with what is called in X Mormon
circles, I think the November

1644
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:21,760
policy.
Oh, yeah.

1645
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:23,040
Do you remember this?
Yeah, this.

1646
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:26,480
Is the one to bite the children.
Yes, same parents.

1647
01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:30,200
Children of gay parents had to
disown their parents in order to

1648
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:31,800
be baptized in the Mormon
church.

1649
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:34,800
Yeah.
Because children can think and

1650
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:39,760
rationalize.
And yeah, I mean, just way to

1651
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:46,480
set children aside and make
children be rejected by other

1652
01:22:46,480 --> 01:22:49,560
children, right?
Schools, communities, all the

1653
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:50,520
things.
Exactly.

1654
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:53,880
So I think formally they were
not allowed to be baptized until

1655
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,120
they were adults, and in order
to be baptized into the church

1656
01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:01,000
at that point, they would have
had to essentially denounce

1657
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,720
their their gay parents.
Which like brings a full circle

1658
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:08,440
all the way back to your like,
well, how can God be all good

1659
01:23:08,440 --> 01:23:10,320
but also right?
That's.

1660
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:13,440
Not very nice.
Yeah, and actually we haven't

1661
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:17,640
even talked about Prop 8.
So Prop 8 in California, right?

1662
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:21,520
So the whole gay marriage issue
came to the ballot in

1663
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,760
California, and the Mormon
church took a very, very active

1664
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:29,000
role in trying to make sure that
gay marriage was not legal.

1665
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:30,560
Money.
Recruiting money I.

1666
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,440
Remembered hearing it in Utah at
the churches.

1667
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:36,400
Door to door going, door to
door, knocking on doors, trying

1668
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:39,240
to convince friends and
neighbors about how evil gay

1669
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:40,360
marriage would be.
Yeah.

1670
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:43,800
At this point I had been an
atheist for, you know, since I

1671
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:44,600
was 21.
Yeah.

1672
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:48,360
So for some period of time, but
I hadn't formally resigned my

1673
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:52,000
membership, which is, you know,
you write a letter saying I take

1674
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,280
my records off the records of
the church.

1675
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:57,480
Right, I'm out.
Yeah, I'm out.

1676
01:23:58,080 --> 01:23:59,560
And that was the first time I
wrote a letter.

1677
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:03,720
But I think they at the time,
they were mostly just throwing

1678
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:07,040
those into the garbage because
my records were not removed.

1679
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:11,120
I found out later.
Whoa, yes, because when the

1680
01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:16,640
November policy came out, my
middle brother left the church.

1681
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:19,240
So he and his wife, I think they
had had a lot of doubts.

1682
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:22,440
Their shelf had been heavy for
maybe quite some time, and then

1683
01:24:22,440 --> 01:24:24,760
this happened and they never
went back.

1684
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:29,480
Yeah, that's that'll do it.
That'll do it.

1685
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:33,240
Because again, hurting children,
yes, it's never.

1686
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:36,080
Good.
And so this was the second time

1687
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:38,440
I wrote a letter to resign my
membership.

1688
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:41,240
I actually called Salt Lake
City.

1689
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:44,320
I called the the membership
records department, and they

1690
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:46,360
confirmed I was still a member.
Yeah.

1691
01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:50,240
And so I resigned it again, this
time with the help of a lawyer.

1692
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:51,280
Wow.
Yeah.

1693
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:54,160
So you they don't make it easy
by the signs of things.

1694
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:55,360
They don't.
Yes.

1695
01:24:55,400 --> 01:24:57,920
But the threat of a lawsuit
eventually sort of, you know,

1696
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:02,400
convinced them to do so.
And, you know, this is actually

1697
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:05,560
when I listened to some Mormon
Stories podcasts and stuff

1698
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:08,640
because I was like, oh, my God.
Like, my brother and his wife

1699
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,240
were going through this faith
crisis and leaving the church.

1700
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:13,760
And I honestly had not thought
about it for so long.

1701
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:14,560
Yeah.
At all.

1702
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:16,720
So I was like, oh, I wonder
what's out there?

1703
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:17,960
Yeah.
Quick Google search.

1704
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:20,400
I found there was podcasts.
My goodness.

1705
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:21,640
Communities.
Yeah.

1706
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:22,920
Websites.
Right.

1707
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:25,960
Like all these resources that
you wished you would have had.

1708
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:27,880
Absolutely wished I would have
had.

1709
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,840
So I spent a couple months
listening to podcasts and kind

1710
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,560
of getting the lay of the land,
and then I pieced back out of it

1711
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:37,400
again.
You're like, I'm good, dip the

1712
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:39,240
toe in.
Yep, taking a pack out.

1713
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:41,120
Exactly.
Don't need to know.

1714
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:46,920
And then subsequently another
one of my three brothers left,

1715
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:50,560
and then my sister and her
husband, who I never thought

1716
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:51,360
would leave the church.
My.

1717
01:25:51,480 --> 01:25:54,080
Goodness.
And so out of five children, I'm

1718
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:58,440
the oldest, 5/4 of us are now
out of the Mormon church.

1719
01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:00,200
Gone.
Yeah, there's one left.

1720
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:03,160
And my.
Parents and your parents, did

1721
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:06,880
you kind of pee of the way where
they less shocked by the other

1722
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:10,200
kids leaving?
All of my siblings that have

1723
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:15,280
left have profusely thanked me
for wow going through that first

1724
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:15,840
thank.
You.

1725
01:26:16,480 --> 01:26:18,840
They call me a pioneer, which is
amazing.

1726
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:22,000
You are.
A wee pioneer, Melissa, you are

1727
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:26,680
a pioneer because God, like I
had never really thought of how

1728
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:31,080
that must have been to come out
when the community wasn't there

1729
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:35,360
when the you know, the Internet,
all of those as readily

1730
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:39,640
accessible as they are today and
just understanding that all

1731
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:42,000
those documents like I feel like
there's going to be a surge now

1732
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,520
down to the library at BYU.
I mean, it's all.

1733
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,240
There, It's all there.
But you don't even need to.

1734
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:48,920
You can just go online now,
right?

1735
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:50,560
It's all online.
Yeah.

1736
01:26:51,440 --> 01:26:54,560
Which is wonderful.
Yeah.

1737
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:56,720
I wish I'd had any of that.
That would have been really,

1738
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:57,480
really nice.
Oh.

1739
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:02,400
My God, that is a truly amazing
story, my friend.

1740
01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:06,240
Oh well, as if I couldn't love
you more, you're the I'm just

1741
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:11,480
like so impressed by your wee
inquiring mind, and not only

1742
01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:17,160
that, but like the idea that it
and I and I hope this is

1743
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:22,760
actually genuinely useful for
some people, because you were

1744
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,680
not like I'm I'm going to
disprove this bullshit.

1745
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:28,640
You're you were just like I
don't what?

1746
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:31,880
This is confusing.
I don't understand.

1747
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:36,160
Give me a reason.
Like, I want, you know, it's and

1748
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:39,680
I think very much sometimes
people who leave the church are

1749
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:43,000
vilified or made like to be bad
or they're just doing it so they

1750
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:47,760
can go and do evil.
And like, yours was so genuine.

1751
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,440
You know, absolutely.
I'm hearing that story.

1752
01:27:50,440 --> 01:27:52,040
Like, it just makes me ache for
you.

1753
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:55,800
And I want to be your wee friend
at BYU to be like, let's go look

1754
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:00,000
at the special collections
together, which, yeah, it's.

1755
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,840
Wow.
God bless those professors.

1756
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:05,760
They were clearly doing
clandestine things with their

1757
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:09,280
text choice in those classes
because I'm like, no, you didn't

1758
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:12,000
read that there.
You can't have read that there.

1759
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:15,320
And like God bless them.
Yeah, I agree.

1760
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:18,520
You know, going to BYU was
pretty horrible in a lot of

1761
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:19,400
ways.
I was.

1762
01:28:19,480 --> 01:28:23,480
I felt very, very isolated and
alone and like I said, depressed

1763
01:28:23,480 --> 01:28:26,600
for most of it.
But the thing that it did do for

1764
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:30,800
me and those professors did for
me was it burned the Mormon out

1765
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:31,760
completely.
Yeah.

1766
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:35,200
Because by the time I left, I
had no more doubts.

1767
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:39,480
I just had been resolved gone.
Yeah, and thank God it was

1768
01:28:39,480 --> 01:28:43,160
honestly at a younger age, like
before you got married, before

1769
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,120
you had kids, so you didn't have
to battle through all that

1770
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:50,880
context of, you know, I'm not
going to let you, like, work.

1771
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:53,400
Thank God you only three dates
with that guy.

1772
01:28:53,440 --> 01:28:56,240
Yeah, and I mean, this kind of
stuff is, you know, tears

1773
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,080
marriages apart.
Yes, those faith crises can

1774
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:03,560
absolutely end in divorce.
I'm shocked that it didn't for

1775
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:06,040
my two siblings that left with
their spouses.

1776
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,560
Yeah, that's amazing.
I give them a lot of credit for,

1777
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:10,680
like, working that through
together.

1778
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:15,560
But yes, I'm very glad that I
never had that experience.

1779
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:20,320
And Claire, I never went through
the temple endowment ceremony,

1780
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:24,640
and I'm very curious to hear
your story in a future episode

1781
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:26,840
about that.
We will go there.

1782
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:30,280
We will go there at some future
point cuz I did.

1783
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:32,560
I had the card.
You had the card.

1784
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:34,640
I never I did not have the.
Card the card.

1785
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:40,120
Not to brag, but I had the card.
So, all right, well, we'll, I'm

1786
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:42,840
very excited to talk about that
at a future date.

1787
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:45,080
But you know what, we've run
pretty long.

1788
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:46,800
So I think.
But we need it to.

1789
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:51,360
Yeah, I think so.
Worth sharing and you know, like

1790
01:29:51,440 --> 01:29:55,880
thank you for sharing your story
because it I think it will help

1791
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:58,960
some people to hear.
You know, I hope so.

1792
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:02,200
And honestly, I'm starting to
understand why all the Mormon

1793
01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:04,760
Stories podcasts are like 5
hours long.

1794
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:06,880
Yeah, because this was the
abbreviated version.

1795
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:10,160
This was we could have gone
extra long on all of these

1796
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:12,080
points.
And I I mean, and I left when I

1797
01:30:12,080 --> 01:30:14,680
was like 21.
Imagine the people that like

1798
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:16,360
left in their 40s.
Oh my God.

1799
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:18,040
Buckle up.
I know.

1800
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:21,680
I was 40, man, so I just thought
John Dylan was long winded.

1801
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:23,480
But you know what?
I apologize, John.

1802
01:30:23,480 --> 01:30:24,680
Like, you know what you're
doing.

1803
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,040
You.
Got a lot to unpack there.

1804
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:29,680
Well, thank you for sharing your
story.

1805
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:32,320
I mean, that's a lot of
vulnerable stuff in there, you

1806
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:36,520
know, sharing all those things
and the diet and the, you know,

1807
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:40,560
very, very human emotions.
You just wanted to know.

1808
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:44,120
You just wanted to know so.
Well, you know what, I got my

1809
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,600
answer in the end and here.
We are the salty hoes, the salty

1810
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hoes podcasting, sharing the
gospel of the salty ho behind

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the scion curtain for all to
We're going to open that

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curtain.
We're going to pull that curtain

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open.
We're pulling that curtain back.

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We are pulling it back.
There you have it.

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The Salty Host The Salty Host
thanks everyone for listening.

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We'll catch you next time.
See you soon.