MomTok Update: We Hope DadTok Doesn't Survive This

0:21 Hey everyone, I'm Mel. And I'm Claire. And together, we are the salty hoes. Welcome back, everyone. So we are coming at you from deep behind the Zion curtain. We are coming at you from deep within the dungeon of the Salt Lake Library. We are in a a dark hole, quite literally today it's. Actually kind of giving me anxiety. Yes, we're trying to like breathe through this, so I think once we start talking more, relax into it. But we will post a picture of the very tiny, sweaty box that we're currently sitting. In yeah, it is a sweat box for sure. At least I'm in here with you and not someone else that is making it slightly more tolerable. Yes.

1:03 And we're both clean and showered, yeah. And that's definitely helping, I think there. Are no shitty pants to be found anywhere in this just little tiny sound booth? This is good. All right, so today we're going to be talking about Dad talk. But first, we got to update you really quickly because just a couple of days ago we were at the Tanner Humanities Center. We were. It was very fancy, it was. Very fancy. The organizers did such a good job. It was amazing. Yeah. What a fun day. So huge shout out to everyone that worked on that. It was so good. So amazing and it was the perfect blend of like academic inquiry, scholarship and just pure fun. Amazing.

1:45 So much fun. Our talk went over really well. We'll give you some more deets on that a little bit later, but we did just want to say we're still coming off that amazing high of presenting. And then something else crazy happened that day. On the same day. Same day. It was like the stars were aligned. It was honestly just an incredible day and I think you're right, we're still like processing and we're going to sign so fangirly, but I don't care. I don't care either because I am genuinely A fangirl and I'm even more now. Oh 100%. But we have a very, very special photograph to share with everybody this week because we bumped into a certain someone on 9th and 9th. Yep, someone that we have been watching for quite some time and who we both absolutely adore. Yep, you drum roll, drum.

2:32 Roll. And that would be the beautiful Whitney Wild Rose. Oh my God. It was amazing and she is such a lovely. Human. She was so kind, she was so gracious. She chatted with us for a bit and it was. Just lovely, she was so chatty and we got a great picture, although slightly elongated picture. There's some photography issues perhaps? But but we don't care. Yeah, we don't care anyway. She could not have been more gracious. She was really lovely and I mostly just stood in the background trying to breathe because I knew that my words would not really probably come out in a really coherent way and I would fangirl and embarrass everybody. So Mel did a great job.

3:19 Thank you. And also, I just feel like she seems so real and authentic. Like I feel like the Whitney we see on the show, especially like the Whitney who's like really like in herself, you know what I mean, Is like the real person. So that's so cool to see. There was like, no, yeah, discrepancy or front. And she was like quite vulnerable even I would say in our conversation. Like she wasn't projecting as like, perfect or you know. Not at all. She was just like there just like being a real person in the, you know what, 5 to 10 minutes that we chatted. She was so great. And she was like, yeah, sometimes they like kind of give me a weird edit. She's like, I give them a lot to work with, though. And we were like, yeah, that's because you're real. Yeah.

4:01 And we appreciate it. 100% and she looks so cute too. Beautiful like. So beautiful. It was such an amazing day. We were just like, wow, all things Real Housewife are just just yeah, everywhere. Today, Claire, it's almost making me believe in like astrology and all your woo woo woo stuff. I love it. You're coming over to the dark side. Right. Literally. Which is really. The light side. But yeah, that didn't make any sense. But you know what I mean? It's it's a good place to be you. Know what? Someday we'll have a whole episode about astrology and you can, you know, school me and some stuff. That would be amusing. I love the woo woo because really, is it any different from believing that 2 white men came down from the sky and told a 14 year old white boy that he was the master leader of a new thing? I mean, it's not really any different. It's not any different.

4:56 But like The thing is, I don't really believe in either one. I know, but anyway we can get into it You're. Like that is a whole other conversation. But yeah, I mean that more directed to like say religious people that would be critical of like astrology or I mean like things connected to the Earth for I mean they are millennia old so. Sure, like they have no ground to stand on to criticize their definitely. Not. All right, well, let's table that for now. Yes, if we get into no, but I really do want to like dive into that at some point. But today we have a different topic to dive into. Very important. Yeah, maybe much less pleasant than we're going to do it. So, Claire, what are we talking about today? Today we are talking about dad talk, yes, and unlike mom talk that we hope will survive, we really hope that dad talk won't survive because it's it's an abomination to use religious or not that.

5:54 I love that you said that. And it's also like completely mooching off of the success of the women because a common narrative that I hear between divorced friends or more so from men, you know, this negative narrative around, Oh, my ex-wife took everything like all my money. Oh my God, right. Like we are no stranger to this phenomena. No, there are a lot of people that we know in that kind of sort of noise around women and, and here we have the complete flip side of that. And it's just so interesting to see it play out and the different standards, shall we say.

6:35 Yeah. Do you think it's fair to say I already have my answer that dad talked generally? Maybe not every single individual, but Dad talked generally are gold diggers. I mean, let's just call them that. They are gold diggers. Maybe that's not fair because these people were together before the show started, but wow, their behavior is really not wanting to make me give them a lot of slack to be honest. And let's just say it's as fair as calling a woman a gold digger. Sure, that's supported a man through decades of a career and then all of a sudden she's a gold digger. So it's as fair really if you OK. True. So maybe nobody's really a gold digger. Maybe some people are, but maybe nobody in this situation.

7:19 Yeah, I have. Go ahead. Sorry, I'm like I, I think you and I both have so many just things to say on this. I think maybe what is a different phenomena here that maybe we don't see on the flip side with women is that you have men complaining that their wife is maybe neglectful of the children or the home or their wifely duties and yet they are enjoying the fruits of the. Labour, shall we say? Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think that several of them might fall into that category where in the case of Montauk, the woman is the one who is the star of the show, right? She's making all the money.

8:01 She's getting the brand deals. Some of these men, for example, Zach, have either, you know, put their career on hold or decided to maybe not do the career they had in mind in order to support their wife. But that support is a little bit of a loaded word, like you said, when they're complaining about it non-stop and they're complaining about taking on caring for the children or the household maybe. But at the same time, it seems like they all have domestic help. Like they have nannies, right? And they have, you know, people like to clean the house and like make the food and all this stuff. And they're still complaining about this role. And I think a lot of that really has to do with the gender roles within Utah and within the LDS church.

8:45 And now that those have been turned on their head, these men are really, really uncomfortable. And we've talked about that before. And it was kind of an interesting strand. I felt like in the first couple few seasons of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. But now it's really grating and irritating me because of, like, how whiny they're being about it. They're kind of being whiny little bitches. Not all of them. Some of them, yeah. Most of them, I think that's fair and I think, you know, probably most of the world agrees with you in what you've just said. And I think, you know, there's definitely an overwhelming responsive just get them off the TV like we they are obnoxious and annoying. And I think in this series, we've seen most of them leave behind what they did before to offer quote UN quote support, because as you say, like when when all the girlies started like mom talk, you know, they were watching the kids full time.

9:43 Some of them were working full or part time. They were cleaning the house, making food, like doing all the things that typically at some point, you know, I'm speaking from personal experience here, but I know I'm not alone. Where you might try to talk to your husband, be like, oh, like, I'm so tired and I feel a little worthless, like, you know, because it's if you're not working, you're stay at home mom, you're like trying to find the connection and you're feeling of worse. Not that there's no worse than being, like motherhood, but we're always getting the messaging that there's no worth in motherhood. But yet that's also what we're supposed to do. Yeah. So it's, like, deeply confusing.

10:24 And, you know, the response is not always helpful, as we've seen play out in Dad talk where it's like, oh, yeah, I hear you, but the kids really love you. And it's just like, branded benevolent sexism of, you know, oh, I hear you. But, you know, the kids love them all more. And what are you supposed to do with that? I think you said that so perfectly. Benevolent sexism is something we're just seeing all the time. And I feel like that's something that we see in some patriarchal structures, including sometimes the LDS church. I mean, I'm sure you've heard many times, probably more than I had, because you were in it for longer, right? The stuff from the pulpit, like a women are just like too good. They're too pure. Like they don't need the priesthood because they're already like so amazing.

11:07 We're the ones that need it because we're broken. But at the same time that allows them to retain all the power within the structure. And it's such like a Jedi mind trick because, yeah, it's like, but we're being really nice here. We're saying nice things, but it's like firmly putting you in this little corner that you can't get out of or you're a bad mom or a bad wife or, you know, my favorite scenario when I was still in in the club was sitting in Relief Society. And they, you know, invariably the lesson would come around about being a mother or something work related. And I always used to think it was like a double insult because they would say, you know, well, I am hashtag blessed to be able to stay at home full time with our children because my husband earns a lot of money, far I know. And so it was like a double insult to women who worked and also their husband because obviously they were weak and atrocious and there was no other reason that a woman wanted to work outside the home only because her husband was inept and not earning enough.

12:15 So it was like a double insult. And I remember like raising my hand one week and I said, but but what if you're like, really good at something or, you know, you've put a lot of time into education and, and you like, dare I say it, want to? And it was just like, Oh my God, you demon. Like crickets? Yeah. Tumbleweeds blowing by? Yeah. Suddenly bailed. Waves of hostility. Sister, that's not an option. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's really bad. It's actually kind of a triple insult because it's also saying, like, you weren't good enough to lock down a man that makes a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah, like me. Yeah, Who's hashtag blessed prosperity gospel bullshit, right?

12:59 Yeah. And it's really weird because some of us actually do want to have a professional identity. Yeah. I mean, when I was married, certainly I did not have to work. There was no economic reason for me to do so. But I really wanted to. I didn't want my PhD to go to waste. I wanted to have, like, my own social and professional identity. I wanted to feel fulfilled in that sphere instead of being home. And no shade to someone who use us to just stay home because that's what they want to do. I think that's marvelous. And if you want to do that, do that. But I still felt like I had some professional goals to accomplish. Choice it's all dying to choice right exactly if you want to stay home, stay home if you want to stay home for a wee while stay home. If you don't, don't like, it's all good, right? You know, trusting that people will make the decisions that are best for them and for their family. And actually, nobody needs to endorse. That yeah, like there's not one right way. No SO.

13:59 Anyway. Good times. Good. Times. Yay Mormonism. Yay. Mormonism. Well, should we get into some details of dad talk? I think we should get into the nitty gritties. And I think I want to start with the big one. OK, I think I want to start with Dakota. Yep. And I would like to acknowledge that your witchy instincts were quite correct about Dakota. So we talked about this a few weeks ago when we did our mom talk episode. And you know, I wasn't contradicting you. I was just saying we don't know. We've only seen this one thing. And you were also saying, hey, we don't know. But here's my experience. And this is how it is eerily reflective of what I'm seeing in the video and in Taylor, Frankie Paul. So kudos to you, my friend.

14:44 Hats off, because now we have some new information about Mr. Dakota. Well, I think that our conversation was great because we were just, you know, untangling at all, you know, and looking at all the the possibilities and we still don't know. But we have more information, right? And I, oh, sorry, I think we were clear to say. So sorry, we're talking over each other. Well, honestly, we're in a dark hole and we can't see each other's right, the faces. Are a little bit occluded more than normal? Yeah, I think we were careful to say, look, we don't know what's going on. We know this little piece that we see and that's still true. Like now we just have a couple more pieces of the puzzle.

15:27 We still don't know the whole thing. That's that's very true. And I guess the next big day is like April 30th, the next hearing. But the information that came out was very interesting and I'm sure has mirrored many people's experiences. I think rarely things happen in isolation. So it's not like all of a sudden she just came out throwing chairs one day or, you know, look, she got super drunk this night. Like we all have lapses in judgement. Every single person on this earth. It happens. And you know, if you have video footage, it's really easy to highlight, right? And I don't know what kind of stuff that Taylor, Frankie Paul has, but I've always held true to this idea, which may or may not be true.

16:16 This is just a little Clarism. But, you know, we've talked about this before. There's always, like, a cringe element when someone is sobbing and records themselves. You know, it's like you took time to put a tripod there to make sure your home was all, you know, finessed. And, you know, maybe those are very genuine. Maybe they help people. Personally I am like, OK, is this performative or are you actually at a low point? And again, this is my own like hypothesis here, but I kind of feel like if you are calm enough and control enough to set up a recording device, to me that speaks more of manipulation versus somebody saying this thing happened.

17:05 And no, I didn't pause to record it because it was violent and terrible and awful and I was maybe scared for my literal life in that moment or, you know. Something like that. Maybe I wasn't actually physical physically capable of whipping my phone out because I was being physically hurt. Yes, or even if there was no physical things happening, the emotional confusion, like one of the, you know, main manifestations of emotional abuse is confusion of like, did that happen? What was that like? Oh my goodness. And then, you know, that's what wears people dying. And then sometimes they get to the point of throwing tears, which I'm not saying is justified. I'm just saying, you know, I could potentially understand it. Yeah, or that there could be a threat of physical abuse even if it's not happening in that moment, right? Don't you dare take your phone out or, or something like that. Claire, I really, really love and appreciate your analytical mind cuz you're like, OK, we saw that, but like, what's the framing?

18:07 What is the context? So like that did happen. Nobody denies it, but what happened before, what happened after, like what led up to this? Like both that day and sort of as a pattern in the relationship. Yeah, that's, you know, because it just things rarely happen in a vacuum, I think. And it's really easy to tear people down, I think, especially people that are really successful. And you could argue that she has always been kind of effortlessly successful person. And mom talk, you know, she doesn't take a lot of the speaking time. She's not super glammed up the way maybe the other women are, you know, she's usually in sweats and her hair is all a big Bush and she's still gorgeous.

18:52 Yeah, and yet she's the one that put Montauk on the map, right? So when Montauk started, that was really Taylor, Frankie, Paul. I mean, Miranda was there too. Some other people were there too. But really, the person that made them all famous was Taylor. So she's got some smarts in terms of social media. Definitely. And just, you know, pushing the idea, seeing it through all of those things. And, you know, it also just never added up that we were seeing them together, which I think everybody was cringing out in the most recent season. They're like, oh, here they are again. Like back together. Yeah, so much toxicity. Yeah, and so high then the next week, are you like OK, restraining order, you know, it's there, there seems a little performative element to it.

19:36 Yeah. And the timing element, like we talked about before, like the day the video came out, like that was deliberate, right? I mean, I think we can probably say that. But since we talked last, you know, like we said, we know now that Taylor has alleged that Dakota was physically abusive to her as well. She has submitted evidence to the court of injuries that she sustained from him slamming her head against the dashboard of a car, driving off with her after she told him not to do that, kicking her while she was on the ground. And apparently, like photos of her injuries have been submitted to the court. And that was since the most recent hearing. And none of that is OK. No. No. And, you know, those are only some of the little Nuggets that have been shared. And it kind of makes some of the comments potentially make more sense to, I think in this past hearing, they talked about how she had decisively ended the relationship, I think around February.

20:32 And he had gotten very upset about that. And I remember thinking it was a little odd in the most recent series where she was going off to The Bachelorette. And obviously, you know, she had some hesitancy, like she left later than her mom and the sister and the kids. And, you know, she got there and they were faced next timing. And he was like, well, maybe like save a rose for me and said that he loved her. And she was just kind of like, OK, and hung up. And I was like, that's a little cold. And then you're like, oh. OK, there's a reason she's reacting that way. Yes. Yeah. Because she'd already told him it was over and there he is. Just. I mean, it's, I'm not a psychologist, but from what I've read and I hear, it's classic narcissistic behavior to really act up whenever a good thing is happening to the person that you have been abusive to.

21:24 Yeah, and that's, you know, well documented in terms of like even holidays, birthdays or a big important event happening, you know, and and he was right on cue. I mean, it was both those things, right? It was one of her child's birthdays, and it was right as The Bachelorette was going to drop. Yep. He wasn't sending her off with joy and support, right? It was coercion and arguably, you know, emotional abuse. So that she's walking into it going, Oh my God, there's still a chance. And it can be really hard to end those relationships. I think a lot of time from the outside, people will say things like, well, I would just walk away if it ever got like that or, you know, I. Hate it when people say that because you don't know how you would react, No, with that whole history. And so there's a reason that people often women, but people in general leaving abusive relationships, it can take multiple tries to actually leave it definitively and for good. And I think we're seeing that with Taylor A. 100% and especially where they have a child together, you know it's. Really hard, yeah.

22:28 And it's again, he is doing that whole confusing thing because she's ended it. And he's like, but, but here's a little crumb. I want to destabilize you again. So yeah. Yeah, and that's a powerful incentive, right? Like that fantasy of we can be a family. Yeah, that's really powerful. Yes. And again, going back to Mormon conditioning, even though it seems like Taylor is stepping away from that. And I, it's not like you just step away and you're like, oh, I'm completely deprogrammed, right? Everything is fine, yes. It's all good I. Don't have? Any like trauma to work through? And it's this idea of like, well, what would a good mother do here? Like a good mother holds family together, you know, and tries and you know does all the things and you can't fault her for trying. No, I don't fault her for trying. Yeah, I really don't.

23:17 I have a lot of sympathy for her. And I'm not saying that, you know, she has not done some abusive things to him like I think they have. I think it's a little like we talked about where we're seeing abuse from both of them. We're seeing victimhood from both of them. We can't really assess like who's more at fault or like, that's not our job. That's not what we're doing at all. But one thing that I have noticed that I really dislike is I feel like even though they're both getting criticized, like in social media and in the media, I feel like she is bearing the heavier brunt of that. I think that's so fair and very blatant as well. And I think, you know, we talked in a recent episode about witches and it's it's really pretty similar in terms of you were supposed to act this way and you're not, you know, even just dying to the basics of like, if a man is aggressive or angry, it's he's powerful, right? And if a woman does it like she's a shrew and and like crazy.

24:20 And, you know, I think that particularly powerful women, I mean, there's data points. I'm not just like saying, oh, this is how it looks to me, you know, from from my vantage point, but I think there's data points to show how women are treated in media versus high men. You can look at it with politicians, You can look at it with actors, you know, and all these different areas and, you know, yeah. Women are absolutely crucified in the court of public opinion when they deviate from what I guess society feels like should be the gender role. And maybe that happens a little bit less frequently or to a lesser degree with men because in our patriarchal system, they're expected to be aggressive, right?

25:04 And it's seen as OK, especially if it's in response to the perception of a crazy woman. Yes. Right. It's like, so real. Yeah. It's like, oh, you calm her down. Like, you know. Yeah. She's. Crazy. You gotta keep her in line. Keep. Your woman in line it kind of goes back to like the the female ownership patterns, you know yes of yesteryear when women wear property which sidebar but kind of relevant. I love to look at like laws that are technically on the books in Utah, but you know, like for law you need precedent and all other kinds of things. But there is technically a law that says if your wife commits a crime in the well, if a wife commits a crime in the company of her husband, he's responsible.

25:54 Oh my God, would. Not be fun to try. Well, neither of us have a husband currently to try that with, but yes, that would be a fun one. And. We're not giving legal advice. We are not. We're not lawyers. We're not. Lawyers. So this is not encouraging anybody to do it, but it just makes me gig because you're like, wow, that's where you can really subvert patriarchy back on itself and be like, OK, all right, we're going to the bank, I'm going to rob it, and you're going to go to jail. I mean, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't play it like that. But, you know, it's just fascinating to see how things were constructed and then maybe how we could fuck the system with its own self. Yeah. Yeah.

26:35 OK, anything else we want to say about Dakota? I guess the other news is that they're editing him out of Vanderpump Villa, but he is still in the unwell winter. Winter Games. Unwell Winter Games. Yes, which? I actually watched the first episode of. And you quite. Like that, I mean, it was pretty entertaining, yeah. I'm excited to watch that. That's interesting. I wonder, is it because it's underway? Is is Vanderpump Villa underway? It's filmed but I don't know how far, like in the editing process they were or anything like that. Well, you know, it was welcome because if they did it to Taylor with The Bachelorette situation, I think that it's fair if you have an allegation of slamming someone's head on a dashboard that you should also have a similar.

27:25 Consequence. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Or maybe we're all just pawns and this is just a massive ploy of, you know, the the big TV corporation. I mean, you might make a good point there. I'm still holding out hope that we're going to see this season of The Bachelorette. And I kind of suspect we will, because. And so it will be very heavily watched. Oh. My God, maybe like even more so if that's possible than it was because the timing is very suspect there, you know, for, you know, Bravo or whoever does. I don't even know who does the bachelorettes, the ABC. Oh, ABC, yes, sorry, wrong, wrong, wrong place. But you know the timing also with Dakota as well. But yeah, that was I, I think that was a very fair development.

28:13 I agree and I really hope that in addition to Dakota they also edit Jordan out because I don't need to see that man on my screen really. No, no, no, never. Which gives us a good segue into Jordan, all right. Anything else you want to say about Dakota or shall we move on to Mr. Jordan? I think I'm Dakota exhausted I. Think I'm dakoted out too. We're like, dude, just yeah, I mean, I could. I just feel like I should censor myself because I'm probably projecting with the things like I feel I wanted to say about Dakota. But yeah, we can leave it there and move to Jordan. We can. Always come back, you know, if we have and I'm sure we're going to have more information so we'll probably do a follow up as well. I think so. All right, moving down in the order of Dad talk that we like the least right now, Jordan.

28:58 Yay, Jordan. Oh wow, just where do we start with him? Yeah. Well, do we have any updates with Jordan since the last time we talked about him? I don't know that I've heard any updates on him since the Will I get it right this time? Call her daddy? Did I get it right? Did I? Not call me daddy. Clearly that's a whole different request, but yeah, I have. Has there been? More information. I don't think there's been more information. Jordan, I think, has been fairly quiet on social media, which is smart and probably at the advice of his lawyer, which is what I would also be telling Jordan is just shut up.

29:38 Yeah. I think the only thing that I heard was that he's remember we had that information from Jesse that right before the Marciano thing happened, she had found out that he had tried to hire an escort when he was out of town for a work trip. And he is now claiming that he was trying to hire strippers for a bachelor party. But I guess my confusion in response to that is escorts and strippers are two different things. Yes. So you would assume that you would know who you were booking because I don't know that I if I happen to be in a position to be booking strippers for some kind of a party that I wouldn't accidentally book an escort. Yeah, I wouldn't think so. And I would also say that if you were booking strippers for a bachelor party, why would the business owner then reach out to your wife and be like, hey, you should know about this. Yeah, it's like ordering tacos when you were told to bring pizza.

30:32 Well, kind of, yeah. It's like bringing dildos when you were told to bring pizza. Like, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's just like that story doesn't hang together for me. It it it. Doesn't make any sense. And I think it's like so classic of a lot of these men in terms of the way they act towards their wife, Like, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? And they are doing equally, if not sometimes more egregious actions. And they're just like, what's the problem here? Totally. And I mean, finding out that information and seeing the way he shamed Jesse, who at all times took full responsibility at all times, Yeah, she never once tried to be like, oh, it was fine.

31:16 Like, ever. If anything, she. Maybe even took more responsibility than she needed to, but she certainly owned it. Yeah, like she was maybe too harsh on herself because, you know, we find out as well that he had reels ready to go. Yeah, that's. So gross. Gross. Yeah, what a horrible person. Just. We're we're not Jordan fans. We are not in case you didn't know this in case. You couldn't tell that's not our favorite person I like. Him very much, though, yeah. And I, we're finding out too, which we knew before as well, but that he went against what they had initially agreed in their divorce. And I'm also mad that he's in that house. Yeah, me too.

31:57 I mean, I've heard Jesse say after that she wants a clean slate and I get that. And it's like wow, Duke gets a sit like King of the Castle with her success. Hopefully she just sells that really quickly and gets him out of there and then by her own place and move on. That's my hope for Jessie. Yes, I Didn't she move in somewhere this week? I. Think so, Yeah. I watch some of her social media, but she posts a lot and honestly, sometimes I can't keep up. I'm like, oh, there's reels with Marciano. There's reels with, like, some other guy, like, and you know what to like, to be fair, like live your life, Jesse. Like, I love this for you. Like, that's no shade. Whatever you're doing. Like, you be as messy as you want.

32:38 If you want a HO phase, you take that HO phase. I think that's great. It just was too much for me to follow this week. We were busy. Yeah. We had a lot going on with our V symposium, so yeah. But Jordan, just no thanks. Hard pass. Mr. Jordan hopefully he won't be in the Vanderpump and I feel like that would be especially fitting, right because of all of them, we've said this before, Jordan was the most thirsty to get famous like off the back of Jesse success out of all of. Them and his, like face whenever the opportunity came, like to go to the Vanderpump Pump does that Vanderpump. Yeah, that's right. It didn't sound right. Mansion.

33:19 He was like salivating. Like he was like, oh, So what are you going to do about it? Like he just was so like, you know, it was like revenge or, you know, oh. Yeah. What event did he like derail and like interrupt to like give this announcement? Do you remember that on that? Right. They were at like a fun place, like a yeah. And it wasn't about for somebody else, right? Yes. You had to be like, it's me. Yep. Like, completely unrelated. Yeah, I have. It's like Brittany Ting, Ting Ting. Like I don't expect in the middle of nowhere. Jared and I are back together. And then we broke up. Yeah. Except for unlike Brittany, he was kind of a sweetheart and we loved Brittany. Maybe a little clueless.

34:01 That was very deliberate. So deliberate and again, just, oh, the spotlights on someone else. Bring it back to me, bring it back to me. But yeah, that really honesty disgusted me to see. He was just so excited to go to the place of Marciano to like, yeah, do his best, whatever. Like ooh, no. Not Jordan fans, not Jordan fans. Anything else we want to say about Jordan before we move down the list to our next least favorite? I'm going to guess is probably Zach, unless it's Grandpa Brett. Yeah, it's kind. Of a toss up. It's it's a toss up. I think that Brett should definitely win an award for the most cringe fest.

34:42 Oh, boy. Yeah. Oh my God. I think part of it is because, you know, we're closer in age to Brat, yes than anyone else on that show. And yet we're still younger than Brett, right? And I think we are. That's just like I am embarrassed for him and honestly can I just say I am having joy here? Call us Dick punchers whatever you want, but I love how you keep using that phrase. But like at subverting the the just the social norms that we've levied against women forever to the men, because it even feels weird to talk about them in this way. But it's literally the way women have been talked about forever, 100%.

35:32 And it's it's kind of cathartic, I'm not going to lie. So yes, back-to-back to old man weathers here like. So funny. It just like, you know, and you know, that to me is like, make this real to show that I'm good. Yeah. And you're like, dude, come on. I mean I'm not the biggest to me fan but that really made me feel sorry for her. I was like, oh girl. Yeah, I don't I I don't know if she can crawl out of this hole. She is. Created. And I think the difference there is everybody else has messed up and they've taken accountability.

36:12 Yeah. Where she's just like no, no. And then you know, yeah. The story shifts for the 8th time and you're like yes, OK, right, like and. Then you see some of the text and you're like, oh girl, girl, that wasn't innocent. And then, like, as the other women are saying, like, well, this is a, you know, different story. And then she attacks them. And so, like, that pattern of behavior makes it hard to be sympathetic, right? It's really tricky. And yeah, he, I mean, he seems to have really separated himself from dad talk. Oh, yeah, that's right. I there was that episode where they it was right before the reunion for the previous season. And he was just being so gross and dismissive to Zach. And I was like, I don't even like Zach, but like Zach is in the right here.

36:58 Like, why? Why are you making me defend Zach? So what? I feel dirty. Yeah. And he was just like, it's like personal insults and just like, it was kind of, it was gross. I did not like that. He was going pretty low, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that that was not fun to watch. And I think it's almost like he has taken on this inflated role of I am my woman's protector. And it's coming out in, you know, the ways of him making very odd reels to sort of defend her honor of him. I think the most recent one I saw, he's in like a cloak. Oh. God, I didn't see that one. With like a dark background and I can't remember what the audio was. It was, it was really cringy.

37:39 And so I think he's taken on this like toxic protector role because you and I have both said we love that. We're all about that. But it's like, you know, defending someone's honor also has like a kind ability rolled into it. And you can't just be like, this was terrible, but it is my wife. Don't you dare. You know, I it's just weird. It's just odd. I know I'm throwing up in my mouth a little bit thinking about that, but of course I'm going to go watch it now. Yeah, yeah. We love that protective piece, but when it's manifesting as these, like, gross insults and low blows to other people, you know, including like Jen, like other women, and that just feels really nasty.

38:24 It you know, I'm I'm not about the whole big husband comes in and and, you know, talk shit to his wife's friends. Like that's like a line. And especially given his age, yes, like these women could be his daughters extra creepy. Like they're most of them are younger than his children from his previous marriage. Right to auntie age Right for Real Housewives. Talk about insectious reality TV like crossover. Wow. Interdisciplinary, like we said in the talk. Well, yeah, they like to keep it within the fam, Yeah. OK, well, let's move on to Zach. Zach Tell. Me. Your feelings about Zach?

39:04 Well, I don't, you know, to the point about Brett, I don't think it was super amazing the way he is locked in the standoff with Whitney. You know, we're and also a little shade on Jen because she had made the coffee date with Whitney and then Jen didn't show up and Zach did. And again, it kind of comes under that gross. Like that's super gross. I'm. Here to defend my wife I have had situations where I will show up for a lunch date with a friend and maybe she brings her husband and I'm always like that's really weird it's. Really weird. That's cringe.

39:45 Unless that was the plan to begin. With or they ask or something before would they like? Hey, plans changed or like whatever could they? Yeah, but not like a oh hey, surprise. Like I thought it was a girls date but now it's like my friend and her husband. I've definitely had that with some friends who are still members of the dominant faith here. OK. And it's almost. Like I felt like the husband was there as like a defense from the divorced whore. Like you know what I mean? Like to what are what are they telling my wife? That may not have been the case, but there were just weird vibes. You got the vibes, OK. It's, it's just weird vibes and like, Wendy was very upset.

40:27 And I, you know, I'm not saying that maybe all of the things he discussed, you know, there could be truth to some of them. She definitely did let out a little sneaky smile and laugh when Jen got voted off Dancing with the Stars. We can see that with our own eyeballs, OK? Sure, but in her defense, Jen was pretty shady towards her during that show as well. So you. Know and also we can do weird things under pressure too like you know, I people had can definitely laugh when things are scary or weird as that's true, you know weird like response. Or like you said earlier, like we none of us are perfect. And sometimes we just, it's not our finest moment.

41:10 Nope. And we do something that like maybe isn't the best choice in that moment. And that can range from being thoughtless, yeah, to being a little bit malicious. But you know, like we learned on Friday from our friend Doctor Jordan Rullo. Yes, take 1% accountability, at least 1% accountability. That's. Not like. Look, that wasn't my finest moment. Yeah. And I am sorry. Right. And, like, that doesn't mean that you're saying you're totally at fault and the other person is in, you know, totally innocent. Yeah. You can also then express, like, how you feel hurt. But you do kind of have to own your own stuff. Well, and if both people are doing it, yeah, it kind of sets a really excellent stage for reconciliation. And I think that was key with Zach is that he's not interested in reconciliation, he's interested in winning. Right.

41:57 I was about to say it could set the stage for reconciliation, but it also could set the stage for an eternal positive feedback loop. And, you know, positive meaning it keeps going up and up and up and feeds on itself, right to where at some point we don't even remember what we're fighting about anymore. We're just fighting to fight. Yeah, and it just becomes like a shade war, Yeah, which I think is what we're seeing. I haven't seen all the videos, but I've seen some and it it's just like so petty at this point where, you know, Zacks like walking and giving a dramatic monologue on how shitty like Whitney is. And, you know, I I have seen Whitney and Connor make more like humorous reels about the situation, which I don't know if that's a great approach either, if you're going for reconciliation. But yeah, there it just seems to be like this standoff, not really.

42:51 Like, can we resolve? And then, you know, maybe you could argue, yes, they're part of you, Zach, That's a little Jelly now, because. Oh, I'm sure, definitely. I think there is that. I think Jen and Zach both have a little bit of jealousy going on for Whitney's great success, which, yeah, I think she's earned. I mean, my goodness. Like the arc from Season 1 with Whitney has just been incredible. And it's the charts. Yeah. I've come around like, big time. I. Have come around too. I'm a reformed Whitney hitter cuz I was just like, you're a raging bitch like. Yeah, I mean, I think she got a pretty bad edit in Season 1, right? She did do some shitty things.

43:33 But also, you know, and this goes back to what we were talking about with Taylor, like the little dance she did in, like, the NICU or whatever when her child was very sick. And then, like, posting that for clout, like, that really rubbed me the wrong way. And like, maybe I need to think a little harder and deconstruct, you know, my gender assumptions. I mean, I that is, I love that you say that. Like, I think that's, you know, just lovely and the empathy, I think, and the cares that everybody needs to be like, OK, that was maybe not your finest moment, right? But you know what she did? She did actually take accountability and apologize for that. So you know what? Like we're good.

44:13 Yes, I'm good with that. Yeah. Because we all make mistakes, we do. And I would imagine that being thrown in to from, like, nothing. Yeah. I mean, let's visit sometimes again, projecting when you're in that Mormon world, you can really feel like nothing. And then all of a sudden propelled into, you know, oh, can you be a brand ambassador for this sex toy? And you're we Mormon, fine to school. Like, that's a lot of money, but Oh my God. Does that compute and? Like, honestly, for all of them must have been just like raging cognitive dissonance, you know, of like, is this good? Is this bad? I don't, no. And I think, I mean, I think she stepped away from it now, but when me in particular was really, she was Miss Molly Mormon as we would have.

45:03 Called it big time. Yeah, big. Time and that must have mind fucked her up down in sideways. Well, and also we met her mom on season 1 and I was like, oh boy, we've got a lot to unpack from childhood here. So it's like, you see all the moms and you're like. Oh, well, I think one of the really interesting things about the show and you see it with Whitney, but you see it with a lot of them is like they really did come from this Utah background, very sheltered in Utah County. And then they blew up overnight, right? And they are young. They're babies, like we've said before, like they're quite young. They blew up overnight. And I think we see it with some of them, with Whitney, we see it with Jesse, where like, they're getting a lot of, you know, comments and reactions both online and in the media. And I think it is interesting because like, I think, for example, with Jesse, we see everyone saying, look, the way he treats you was not OK.

45:56 And like her coming to that realization over time because a lot of the behavior we see from the men is very normalized in Utah County and sort of in, you know, Utah and in the LDS Church in general. So, you know, suddenly they're like blowing up on this national international release stage and they're getting all this feedback and maybe they're starting to take a harder look at some things they didn't question before. Which is very difficult. I love the way you put that in terms of, we've seen this in both Real Housewives and Secret Lives where it's on a stage where people are going. What, like, why is a 50 year old woman crying because she feels bad about having sex with her long term partner? Like, that doesn't make sense in the real world. Or, you know, your husband is clearly a misogynistic prick, but somehow that feels normalized. And, you know, that's a really painful journey. Yeah.

46:54 To step away even in your wee head, if you're like, OK, something's not right. I I know it's not right, but all around me it's right. Yeah. So like at what? You know, I mean, imagine a lot cognitive dissonance. And I think it's harder for our secret Lives girlies. Not that it's easy for like our Real Housewives, but at least, like, they're older, they're a little more fully formed in their personality, they've had more life experience, etcetera. But like, most of these women are in their 20s. Yeah. The ones that aren't are in their very early 30s, right? So like, they just, you know, and a lot of them, I think have probably been living in the Mormon bubble for like, their whole lives and suddenly they're not. Yes, and they're, I mean, there's just so many things happening there and that is such a young, young age and also a young age to be dealing with things like motherhood.

47:44 And also a lot of these women were the husbands have come out, Zach in particular, they've been postpartum as well. Yeah. Which I'm not saying that means you can do whatever you want, but like, things are happening in your body and your mind. Yep. You know, and you know, for Whitney and also Jen, they had to go right into training for Dancing With the Stars very closely postpartum crazy in scene, like, and to have some man barking at you that you're being a terrible mother. Like, I would imagine that I would have just sobbed and felt like a terrible mother. So yeah, we're not Zach Vans. No, not really. I mean, I have a lot of empathy for all these women and I, as we talked last time, I am trying, but I'm struggling hard to have empathy for these men.

48:32 I really am. I am trying, I promise. I know I like. We're taking so deep. Of them are making it kind of difficult. For me, it's they're just so I think self interested and I guess the compassionate approach would be, you know, nobody wins from patriarchy, right? Not even men, because they're also slotted into this little box. And, you know, their minds have also been really polluted in the context of religion. And you know what, 12 years old, you're supposed to be this priesthood holder at 12. And you know, if you're real is like that, like that is like a breeding ground for narcissists. Like, you are special, you are powerful. You are, you know, and of course we all want to give our children confidence, but we also don't want want to turn them into assholes, right?

49:23 So yeah. That's a really good point. Like they've been told that and now suddenly they're in this funhouse version of everything where like their wives are like the more powerful person and like they're being criticized for these behaviors that are rewarded, like where they came from. Yeah. So it's it's interesting. I mean, I hope that I would like to hold out some hope that some of them will deconstruct that and sort of, you know, come around to the light. It's real. Easy to slip into and just, you know, throwback moment to Zach in one of the early series where Jen had gone to the Chippendales in Vegas, which wasn't even our choice. They didn't know where they were going. I. Mean. She was almost dragged there.

50:04 It's not like she was force, but she didn't know it was a surprise. She was visibly uncomfortable with the whole thing. And didn't she like stay in the back like to Eden all like she stayed far, far away touching or participating, right. She wasn't dying there grinding on the tobacco And I that phone call like I like the gates of hell opened in my body because he's sitting gambling thousands of her money of her money that she literally gave him for the trip, saying, you know, well, it's not very becoming of a latter day St. and he's literally sitting at like a blackjack table. Yeah, and threatening to leave her. And by the way, our friends who weren't raised in the LDS faith, you're not supposed to gamble either. That is a taboo in Mormonism.

50:48 It's a major taboo. Like personally I've no problem with that. It's fun. Go fill your boots. Right? Like but like sure, but like for him to be sitting at a literal gambling table threatening to leave her and calling her all the harlots in creation? The hypocrisy in that was vile to me off the. Charts, off the charts. Yeah, it was really upsetting. And he's not really improved. Sometimes it feels like he's trying to, or maybe he's learned to be more performative about it. I'm not really sure which. I'm trying to hold space for him, trying to improve, but he's not doing great so far. In my opinion, he's not. You're a very good human military. No, I don't know that I am, but like, I feel like empathy is a thing that I've, I've been, I've worked on for a long time. And so I try.

51:37 You have. You are a very empathetic human. Thank you. I feel that. Thank you. Well, shall we move on to Jace? Two other people that are not empathetic. Oh my God, aid. I know Jace, who like would be higher on our list except for the other men have been bad enough to like be ahead of him. But just as a reminder, Jace got Michaela pregnant when she was 16. She's had four of his children. And I think we said this last time, but the first couple of seasons I was like, oh, he seems nice. But then I like read that and I was like, oh, I don't really like that at all. And then we started seeing a little more of Jace, which I also don't like. I yeah, I saw a term this week online that I thought was great to describe him in that he was gunning for the good husband. Edit.

52:25 Oh, I think he was him and Jacob. Yeah. And I think, Oh yeah, the pair of them, I think we're like transitioning here crossing over this line from like just the the notably like just very clearly gross, like actions and you know, no filter to we're crossing over into the nice guy. Quote UN Quote Yes. Like this facade of but I'm a nice guy and sometimes the nice guys are really shitty. Honestly, it can even be a little more pernicious because there's not always something very overt to call out. Yeah, I've definitely had this happen in my own life. Like guys who will describe themselves all day as like, a great guy, a nice guy, someone who would never disrespect women.

53:10 Yeah. But maybe they just, you know, and I think they believe it, but there is an undertone to their behavior and the way they speak to you that is not nice and not okay and pretty sexist, to be honest. Yeah. And if you can't really point it out to them because they will get very defensive and very upset about it because in their head they're one of the good ones, yeah. They're a nice guy, so AKA know what kind ability there because they're nice, right? But living in Utah, we know that nice is actually pretty toxic, and we'd rather have kind. Yes, yes, kind, not nice and some men really are nice and kind. So like I don't want to say like this is every man who's like I'm a nice guy, but some of them, even if there's not an overt action to call out right, like they wouldn't spike your drink and rape you right like they wouldn't hate you.

53:59 They're. So nice. Oh wow. But interestingly, when women are criticized, they pile on. And when men are, they defend them, you know? And you're like, that's not a nice guy, though. Nope. And it's like they're benefiting from the bar being so low for women and instead of trying to up it for their buddies, yeah, they're just like, I'm not going to roofie you. I'm not going to punch you in the face. Aren't. IA nice guy. I'm so nice. Like yes. And as you say, we've had those experiences in our personal life, definitely of the nice guy vibe. And it's it's kind of. Oh, yeah. It definitely can be. Yep. And I think, you know, here's the thing, like, of course, I think generalization, but it would be a fair one to say that if you're in a relationship, a meaningful relationship, that, you know, intimacy is a lovely part of that, but it's not a demand or an expectation. And he's kind of turned it in.

54:58 Well, there's no kind of, he's turned it into that. And particularly given the trauma that she's like trying to work through, like she's not just complaining about it, like she's actively trying to confront it and move on. And maybe she'll realize that the problem is Jace. Well, part of because, I mean, let's let's be clear, to add on to what you're seeing. Like what she went through in childhood was horrific, horrific. We don't know all the details, but yeah, she was sexually abused as a child and it was clearly just horrible. Yeah, because she had that layer that often happens within religion where it didn't seem like she was believed and she was victim shamed for it too. And I. Mean at some point we can talk about all of the the Mormon church abuse things that are kind of going on and hitting the news. We'll leave that for now.

55:47 But like, this is a definite strand that can happen not just in Mormonism, but in any sort of patriarchal system like this definitely where women and children are not believed. 100% I mean, yeah, there's there's countless examples that that we could bring to bear. But you know, he, I think he's definitely hiding behind that nice guy. Like he doesn't raise his voice. He doesn't, you know, he's like kind of your energy. I don't. Know like a little your energy. Yeah, a sweet sorry, go ahead. Just an Irish phrase came to mind. Like the flies are dropping off him. I love that he's. Just kind of.

56:29 Blah. You know, Yeah, Yeah. But so he instead of using sort of overt, you know, physical abuse or emotional abuse or anything like that, he's got the little emotional manipulation going on. So he weaponizes the pouting and the sulking and the, you know, you know what I mean? Like the hang dog thing going on? Well, cuz it's like you're not meeting my expectations. Poor me. Yes, that's not a good look. I don't. I don't, I don't like that. And I think, again, what I know is that context of of Mormonism, I assume it happens in other spots too, where, you know, it's like you're not living up to the expectations of a good Mormon wife here.

57:11 And it's kind of disappointing. And that's its own level of abusive behavior. It is. And as you say, maybe even worse because it's so hard to detect. Yeah. It's more subtle and it's more pernicious, Yes. And it makes you feel like you're the problem. Yes, you're the broken one. Yep. And it takes a long time to sort of recognize that pattern. Yeah. And I think from some of the way she's presented and things she said, she's definitely internalized that I think to a point. Pass on Jace. Yeah, pass on Jace. All right, moving on to Jacob. Yeah, he, he's. An interesting one because he is like a nice guy. Times, 5000 another. Nice guy. I feel like with Jacob, we have less data than with some of the rest of them because they feel like he's gotten less air time, he's done less acting out, right. So there's less to sort of put on screen with him. Yeah.

58:01 So I don't know. For me, the jury is kind of out with Jacob, although he did have that one comment. Do you remember? Oh yeah, that that one. And it maybe landed a little harder with those of us with a background and Mormonism, too. Would you like to share that lovely comment that you? Made I think you could go ahead. Well when again they were talking, I mean we got little features of discussing the wifes success and how that was going to play out in family dynamics. And his response was well, the priesthood should be the ultimate decision maker. Vomit. Yeah, and it's for our listeners with not a Mormon background. This is really solidified in the temple where, you know, the wife is told in the temple that she will follow the husband, the direction of the husband.

58:55 And there's like a slight caveat, like it's something like in Shakespearean language in so far as he like who was. So, you know, in so far as he follows the counsel of our Lord. Here's the problem with that. You know, how are we interpreting the counsel of the Lord And when you've already given somebody like the power quote, UN quote to speak for the Lord, then the Lord can say whatever you want him to say that's. Right, so who gets to decide? Not the woman. Yep, not him. So, you know, you can shroud it in this priesthood power, which again is even more nefarious because it's not Mr. Jacob saying, oh, you know, I ruled the roost here and I should be the focus he sent. Well, the priesthood power clearly states, yeah, that, you know, that should be the final decision maker. And guess who holds it in our marriage, right? So I think, again, we don't have a ton of data on Jacob. I would say like maybe the most compassionate view of Jacob is he has grown up and been raised in this patriarchal system. He's been embedded in it and he's he's living it. He's parenting it.

1:00:01 Like this is what he was told his whole life that he should be. So I don't want to like shit on Jacob. Exactly. I think we just don't have enough information. Yeah. And I would hope that he whether or. If not, he stays Mormon for his whole life. I would hope that he maybe question some of the assumptions that he was raised with. Yeah. And again, he could also be in this phase of deconstructing or cognitive dissonance where he's like, wait, I'm, I'm happy for this woman because I really love her. And I'm, I'm thrilled and proud. And, but also I've kind of been told, yeah, there's, there's this thing that I should be doing and, you know.

1:00:41 I'm confused, right? And I mean, from what we've seen, he seems like he treats Macy okay. I don't think we've seen otherwise so. There seems to be a lot of decent happiness happening in that household. Yeah, I think that's fair. They seem. Fine, yeah, what we know now. I think so. Who do we have left? Well, we have two left and I would like to kind of move to. It's not, he's not exactly dad talk. He's kind of dad talk adjacent, but one of my favorites, everyone's favorite bad boy and apparently the only man in Utah since he gets together with all of them. And that would be Chase Mcwhorter. Oh. Yes, dear Chase. I have to admit I kind of love Chase and he is not perfect and he's done some things that are bad.

1:01:27 However, I did listen to his Mormon Story interview recently, and, you know, if you're so inclined, everyone you could listen to that. Now, like most Mormon Stories episodes, it's quite long. It's about 3 hours long. But it was really good. And he kind of won me over. To be honest, when we first saw him on screen, I did not like him. Yeah, he kind of came off as an asshole. But in that interview, he was funny. Yeah, he was charming, but he also took a lot of accountability for his own actions. Now, I wouldn't say he took 100% accountability for everything. Yeah, I mean, particularly he does have a DUI, for example, and I'm not, he did take some accountability. Yeah.

1:02:08 I'm not sure if it was full or just the interview, like they didn't really dig into it that much. But at least he acknowledges what he has done wrong. Yeah. And I also give him a lot of credit for the way that he treats Miranda because it's pretty. It seems pretty great. It seems very amicable and in the interest of the kids, like, even just the fact that, you know, there was footage where they were all at the park together. Yeah. Which is so good for children to see, even if parents are divorced and they're able to hang out and have a conversation, they make little cute reels together kind of mocking some of those ideas of like Co parenting and and men and dad jokes and you know, it's. So cute.

1:02:53 That's impressive, honestly. It's so rare. It's really rare. And like he's taken accountability there too. So you know, he's said like the marriage falling apart is 100% my fault. Miranda is not to blame whatsoever. And he said on the interview also that they don't even have a custody agreement. He just texts her like every day, every week and like what do you need from me today? What do you need from me this week? When can I take the kids? Like what do you need? And I will work my schedule around it to accommodate. Damn right. I'm like rendered speechless. I know like you can see why I'm a Chase fan, right? Well, because. There has to be a high level of mutual trust for that to work yes and also feeling like you can trust somebody enough to rely on them yes is huge because some people don't even feel like that when they're married, never mind when they're, you know, separated and to be able to work together and you know, obviously credits due for her too there and. Yeah, a million.

1:03:51 Yeah, percent. So all the credit to Miranda. Yeah, she's amazing. Miranda's a perfect Angel, She. Really is pretty cool, Chase will say as well. Yes I know he says 0 bad words about her, he only builds her up. I just think that's super admirable. I. Mega high 5 and may all the men on the earth follow his example because, you know, as we've said, no one is perfect. The difference is accountability. And it seems he's taken more than 1%. Maybe not 100, but definitely more than one. Yeah. I mean, I think for his marriage, he's taken 100. Yeah. For the rest of it, I don't really know. But he's he's taken a lot. He has. This is a strand we've talked about before. He has deconstructed his Mormon faith, and it was a really good interview. So hashtag Mormon stories, hashtag John Dylan shout out. It was really interesting to listen to. So he deconstructed that.

1:04:40 But I feel like he's also done a pretty good job of deconstructing at least some of his gender role in patriarchal assumptions. You know, he said in that interview, he's like, the women are in charge. That's how it should be. Like, they are driving the train here. They're making the money. He's like, I'm just here to like, do whatever Miranda needs me to do. Amazing, right? Like and it doesn't feel performative because we're seeing actions align exactly and also she has a platform to say otherwise if it's not actually. The key is but he seems to be the words and the actions align, which is something that seems really missing in arguably most of Dad talk I. Would agree, you know, now is he a little messy like?

1:05:23 Oh yeah, cuz he's trying to get with like every single woman on the show. He and Jesse kissed right? Like it was odd. It's. Just it's kind of funny, but. Yeah, that's like three of them. Not he's been with, Yeah. It's like a a bunch, right but. You're so kind. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so Chase isn't perfect, but again, none of us are. And like his actions have and and like what he said on that interview have really like brought me all the way around. I'm a I'm a total Chase fan. I after hearing you talk about it, I've seen some of the week clips and reels on Instagram from Mormon stories but that is one I'm going to definitely listen to over probably 3 days. But like I will take your time.

1:06:06 Take your time. It's good that it is long. Yeah. Also, by the way sidebar, I would love for Miranda to be The Bachelorette. Oh I think she would be amazing as a Bachelorette because she seems open and available. Yes exactly. You love she has a spouse or ex-spouse that would not make her feel bad Who I feel like would only encourage that probably. Be really supportive. Yes, Oh my God yes. Get her on as The Bachelorette. That would be. Wonderful. She. Would be amazing and she is such like a chill girly and a good. She's a good hype man too, like with her friends. And, you know, I think the position that she was placed in between Taylor and the girl whose name I can't remember, that was having a little fling with Dakota and you could see or.

1:06:55 Whatever, whoever. That yeah, Shania or something, Yeah. Like, you know, she seemed like a real one in terms of a friend as well. Yeah, I agree. And she's one of the original mom talkers. Yeah. Oh, by the way, that interview was also really interesting to hear Chase talk about the quote. Soft swinging. Oh, it's not nearly as juicy as everyone selling it out to be. Yeah. That's funny because, yeah, when you take it into the Mormon context, it's probably like touching someone's hand. Yeah, no, it was like more like, Oh my God, it was hilarious. It was more like high school shit where like they were like drinking and playing spin the bottle and kissing. That sounds like that was kind of it. But then Taylor had an affair separately with one of the members of the group.

1:07:39 And then she went onto TikTok and, like, said that it was the soft swinging thing. But I mean, OK. But like, a little, like, spin the bottle and kissing each other. You're like, when everybody's there and, like, consensually participating. That does not seem that scandalous to me, to be honest. No, like there would be much, much worse things. Yeah, it's like we all got married too young because we're Mormons and now we're, like, doing the most innocent, like, you know, like experimentation of all time. Like it? Almost makes me have a wee tear because you're just like, oh, like that. I know, right. That's just like, it's like, so sad in a way because they're just experimenting with feelings that they never got the actual time when you're supposed to do that supposed. But you know what I mean?

1:08:27 Like in normal developmental terms, you explore things like you play spin the bottle in high school. But. Yeah, I know isn't. That kind of like cute and sort of sad the way it all turned out. That's it's just indicative of a shame based culture as well. Definitely. Exactly. All right, Well, we've got one more member of dad talk to talk about. Yep. And I think we kind of have nothing but good things to say at this point. Yeah. Mr. Connor Shining. We love Connor. We love Connor. He is been nothing, at least on the looks of things, as supportive and honesty. He was like, you know, so if I come to you with something that I'm like dying to share and you know, it's like, I know I have this ear of support or understanding or you know, that you would also say you're being kind of a bitch right now or but in a kind way, you know what I mean? Because accountability is a big part of good relationship. Yeah, it absolutely is.

1:09:29 And I would tell you that I've never had to tell you that because you've never been a bitch. Like, you know, we could have that conversation if necessary. It could definitely happen. And like, you know, I see that in Connor. To me, he's like calling a girlfriend, like a trusted, really good girlfriend. Seems like a safe space. Yes, that you can be your messy self with and, you know, be like, oh, like I'm spiraling. And he has held her with nothing but care and love. Like when she phoned and after the Zach occasion and she was on the phone and he was really upset, really elevated. And he was just like, that's not OK. Like I've got you. Like I it's like making me want to cry. Honestly, like it was perfect.

1:10:14 He validated her feelings. He was in her corner. Like he was offering his support. Like he was. Yeah, he was great. He never once said calm down. Yeah, because that's worked to 0 percent. Oh. My God, Or I just like hate it when like somebody is, you know, upset and they're venting about something and they're like, well, have you considered their point of view? It's like, maybe there's a time for that, but not when someone's coming to you like and they've just been like, you know, shit on and you're like, well, but what about me defending my guy friend here? You're like, no, stop it, yes. It's like the clap, the clap, the face. Clap needs to. Happen because yeah, you when we're all elevated, we know we're not thinking clearly. We know we may be sparrowling, we know we're maybe not being our best rational self, but validation goes a long way.

1:11:01 And that's not to validate or behaviors or unfair things, but just to be like, I can see why you're really sad right now. Absolutely. Just listen and validate and my God, at least get the whole fucking story before you jump in and tell someone they're wrong about being upset. Yes and he also. This seems like a no brainer but I think with so many distractions. But he also was giving her his full attention. Yes. So important. Full. Attention, like listening to every word, like are you good? Are you OK to go? You know, and that's, it seems so sad that we're celebrating it so highly. But the bars. In Hell. But yeah, it's just like, like when I saw that call, I was like, Connor is like my best girlfriends totally that space where I can trust and flail and do the ugly cry and the things and, you know, because I don't, I don't know that I've I felt that with male companions in my life. You know, I always felt a little performative with the good Mormon, you know?

1:12:01 Yeah. Facade. Or like maybe you feel like you have that and then you realize it's kind of a performative thing because they want to fuck you. Yes, that can happen too. There is that like little important faction there? Yeah, it's like, oh, you were listening, but really you just wanted in my drawers. Yeah, yes, although I mean, it can be and both, right? It doesn't have to be either. Yeah. So yeah, Connor. And I also want to shout out to Connor, like cuz season 1, like we heard this thing with him, like maybe being on Tinder and talking to other people. And you know, huge shout out to making a mistake, owning your mistake, taking accountability, working through it. And like huge props to both of them for working through that issue and coming out stronger on the other side. Really good job you guys.

1:12:47 A major major double high 5 and you know, I think that has continued in his support of her career. I mean, he's always there supportive, you assume of the kids and that situation, but even just you know that that famous moment that everybody's talking about where he's like, this is your where she was having a breakdown like a mom guilt. Which for a thing that's so real and related, so. Real because like you will feel bad for things. You don't need to feel bad about it and you can see it in your friends. But when it's yourself, you're like, I am the worst mother ever and he was like, babe, it's your moment to shine. We're good. Our family is happy.

1:13:29 Yes, that was really like literal goosebumps right now. I. Know same. Did you ever see the real with her little daughter? She'd taken her phone. My kids would do this when they were younger, too. And she was making a little video and she was just like, living in New York is the best because you get to walk to school and you get to do. This and you. I didn't see that, but that's adorable. It just must have been like, you know, because you're coming from Utah County to to Manhattan and you're probably thinking, Oh my God, is this good for my children? It was. It's so good for your. Children so cute and a credit to their parenting because kids feel safe and secure. You know, and that's the thing, like kids are resilient as long as they have that safe, secure attachment.

1:14:10 Yeah, so. And they see their parents being the flight attendant. The calm. Amazing. Yeah, so cool. Shredded to Connor. And also like him doing magic tricks, like fucking adorable. Like stop, you're so cute. It's. Killing me. I love that, like where they're both leaning into like just the things that they love because I think when you get married and kids come along, those things are really given up a lot of the time, sometimes out of necessity or thinking that you have to. I love this life for them. Dancing and magician like 100. Percent Oh my God shine on Whitney and Connor. We love you. We. Love you. And you know, I think overall what we're seeing here is people have a capacity for change, either bad change or good change or or, you know, highlighting they have the capacity doesn't mean they always embrace that opportunity, but it's there, it's.

1:15:06 There, and we've seen at least some of these men rise to the occasion. Yes, that's great. That gives me some hope. Some hope we have a little shred left I like that love it OK, so we've. Ended on a high note. We have I. Feel some joy, Oh my God. Me too. I'm sitting in this little dungeon kind of filled with. Like hope and gratitude. Like we've like, we've like managed to like suppress our panic and like claustrophobia for the last hour or so or. Through the shit, yeah. I'm like, we're going to get fresh air anytime. It's going to be fine. But yeah, I mean, we hope that that dog talk, oh for the slip dad talk doesn't survive, but we hope that the likes, you know, of Connor and Chase continue to thrive. Yeah, and we do hope that all these other men with shitty behaviors can actually do some deconstruction and maybe move a little closer to the side of like, hope and good behavior. And hopefully having those good friends in their lives will support that change so.

1:16:07 It's important. Good times. All right, Well, shall we wrap it up? We shall wrap it up. OK, God, I miss you already. I feel like I've seen you like for all of this, like the last four days, and it's been marvelous. Melissa and I have lived together this weekend, yeah. We've been in each other's pockets, which has been kind of fantastic. It's been so lovely. There's nobody else's pocket. I would rather be. Oh my God, climb. Into my pocket, baby. Let's. Do this be an offer that I might actually take you up on right now, so be careful. I warmly welcome it. All right, friends, if you enjoyed our episode, as always, please go ahead and give us a five star rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Drop us a comment. Do you agree?

1:16:47 Do you disagree? What do you want to hear next? If you would like to write us a review, that would be fantastic. And definitely it only takes a second to hit that follow button that helps us a lot on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or even both. You could go for it and do both. Oh my God. We would be so so. Grateful and we're grateful to all of you salty hoes and you salty Bros out there. Keep listening and stay salty. We're so grateful for you all. We'll see you soon. Bye bye.