I Don't Know if MomTok Can Survive This...

0:21 Hello. Hello. Welcome back to another episode of The Salty Hose. My name is Claire. And I'm Mel and. Then I went to say in together for the Salty. Hose. We'll just say it. Two times just for emphasis. You can never have enough salty hose in your life. You can never have enough salty hose. That is very very true. Well, we normally do a little check in here, but we've got a lot to talk about today. Well, it's been quite a week, not just for you, not just for me, but for the entire cast of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. So we're just going to like dive in. Yeah, I think so. And I think we should probably say what they said on the call is call me daddy, call her daddy, call her daddy. I ruined the whole plan, which let's just just just apologize in events today for how many mistakes I am going to make in my speech.

1:15 But yeah, they did a time stamp on the show because they said, I just want to give the time stamp so that if anything else happens, it's not that we were avoiding talking about it. It's just like we didn't know. Well, something else did already happen. And we're going to get into it. Amazing. Yep. So anything we don't discuss that happens between now and when this comes out is purely incidental. I mean, should we time stamp this? I feel like we should. So it is Friday, March 27th around 10:30 in the morning. It is. So if anything breaks from now on, we we didn't know about it. We did not. Might have to do a follow up. That is totally fine by me. Yeah, OK, well, I mean, let's dive right in. And one thing I wanted to circle back to because we talked about it in a previous issue or episode. Wow.

2:04 OK, we're both there this morning. Oh my God, y'all, it's been a week. We're looking for all the grace and compassion today, and because, yeah, we are, we're on the. Struggle bus Yes, please forgive us that's. OK. We're very human. We are human. My eye is still not functional, but it's getting better. You're poor wee eyeball. And I don't think you've slept in a week or more. I think that's true and so I have weird eyelash. Things, that's right. Yeah, we're both on the eye struggle bus today. We really are. I need Pauline it ASAP. Help. We're podcasting from the eye clinic today, friends. After your eyes. Oh, boy. Yeah. OK. So I wanted to circle back to Layla.

2:46 So we talked in our episode about plastic surgery, about some of ours, secret lives of Mormon wives, friends. Yeah. And I remember I said that I think one of them has an eating disorder. And I didn't want to name it because I don't, you know, want to call people out unless I have real information, of course. Well, now we know that, you know, it was Layla, that she looked really concerningly thin and unhealthy over the last few seasons, and she has come out and said that she does indeed have an eating disorder. Yeah. So all our care and compassion to you, Layla. I hope that you're getting treatment for that and that things are improving. I feel really sad for you. Oh so. Sad when we were chatting earlier we had said like I just she's just a wee baby like she's she she's a child. She's actually younger than two of my children and. Oh my God, she has.

3:37 Children and you know, I just. Like, ick for her. Yeah, me too. I mean, she looks like she's about 18. And I mean, in some scenes I feel like she kind of acts like she's about 18. Yeah, too. But it's understandable, right? 100% like, and, you know, trying to parent at that age and I, I can't even imagine single parenting at that age. You know, it's a lot. And I, I kind of have jokingly, but seriously will say to my children every once in a while, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Like because I was such a young mom and I didn't know what I was doing. And I'm sure that had negative impacts on you because I was very young myself. And you know, we, we, we kind of have joke about it, but like, I'm being serious too.

4:20 And I see that in the context of Mormonism, it's just like, get married, have babies, have babies. And there's not really any thought for, you know, how she is feeling. Yeah. And how she can be a mother and, you know, the tools that you need or the shock that it is in your life to become a parent. I mean, it's great, but it's shocking. Clearly, I have a lot to say on this. Sorry that that was surprising. Don't know where that came. From Don't be sorry, I think this is a really important strand. And I think that I don't have the experience of being a young mother. I had my son when I was 33, but I do feel like I had some experience with growing up in in the Mormon church.

5:02 And the way that I think it, it kind of cuts your childhood short in a negative way, right? Because you're expected to sort of go from being a kid to like the 12 to 18 young men's and young women's where they're just like prepping you and like really, you know, hitting, getting married in the temple and, or serving a mission really, really hard. And, and so it's, it's kind of this weird tension where there's some aspect of being infantilized in the Mormon church, but at the same time, you're being pushed from the age of 12 to be thinking about getting married. And we've talked before about how how young they do often get married. And so you're, you're kind of skipping this era of self development and self-awareness.

5:48 I think that starts to come online in your late teens and early 20s or even through your whole 20s. 100% just having the space to be able to do that and then you add children into the mix. It's like it's, it's a lot. And I, I have a very close friend who, I mean, she was married right out of high school graduation, even younger than I was, you know, and so, yeah, there's no, there's no time to get to know who you are and at the root of a lot of disease like you're. Fine. I just said that backwards. You're absolutely fine. Disorders. Oh my God, my brain today.

6:31 But at the root of a lot of it is control, right? Like obviously Layla is plunged into this world of focus on body and you know, she is the only person of color in the seat or in the show, which is a whole other layer as well. Even the time that she was talking about her hair and you know, how difficult it was to really get things to work for her hair because everybody was just using like, white people approaches and it wasn't working. And I just think, you know, it obviously goes much deeper than appearance, although that can be a facet of it and it can be control. It can be a way to cope all of those things. And yeah, just so achy for her.

7:14 Yeah, I think that issue of control is a really good thing to bring up. I think if you feel like you can't control things in your life, well, guess what? You can control not eating right. And it's really sad. You know, when we saw, like she said, I think that she was addicted to tirzepatide. Yeah, which, let's be clear, that's not an addictive substance, but kind of the compulsion to inject it or the compulsion to be really skinny, that does have like an addictive piece to it. So that's one of the I, there's no way I'm going to remember the the name of it, but what is the little acronym where they use for those kind of drugs? Yeah. So there's there's two, the original which would be marketed under Ozempic or Wigovi.

7:59 Yeah, that is a GLP 1 analogue. GLP, one that's not even a whatever I called it, but yet, yeah. No, it's also called semaglutide, and what it basically is, is it is a peptide hormone. Your body makes GLP one naturally, it binds to GLP 1 receptors, and it does a whole host of things. Maybe we could do an episode about this. I think that would be really cool actually, but I'll just keep it short right now. The drugs are the same hormone, but they've been altered in like 3 ways, basically to make the hormone persist in your body for a long time. So GLP one that you make endogenously, it's broken down really, really quickly. But this exogenous, like biologically altered GLP one, the drugs, they will stick around in your body for about a week.

8:50 Wow. Yeah. Long. Yeah. Because they've been engineered to break down really slowly. And so that is what results in, like, feeling full and apparently, like, food noise being dialed down and so forth. Tirzepatide is another separate drug. It also binds to the GLP one receptor, but it also binds to GIP 1 receptor. So it's a it's a similar but even more effective weight loss drug. And are those drugs primarily developed for the treatment of diabetes? That's where they they came from originally, but then it was, you know, noticed that they have a really big effect on body weight, which is amazing, right? Because there's been, you know, I'm sure you remember 1,000,000. Drugs like that have purported to help you lose weight, and some of them do. Do you remember fun Fun?

9:36 No. Yeah, well, it's like not a a good drug. You're like funny thought. It's good. Don't. Yeah, but it will make you lose weight, right? But these actually seem to be really miracle drugs. Side effects are are pretty rare and very mild for the most part. Now, that's not to say that, you know, an individual person couldn't get side effects, but they're really miracle drugs, I think. And there's some pretty good evidence that they are potentially effective for treating a whole host of addictions. Not. Just food, yeah, that could be very beneficial because I Yeah, I think we could do a whole episode on this yeah. I love to have, like your scientific knowledge behind it because I think a lot of people just know them and the result, but nothing about them, how they interact with the body, what the original intent was, what they could do. And I think that's helpful to know because see, I have so many questions tonight.

10:33 I have to like, bite my lips because I'm like, but what about this? So OK, let's we will come back to that. Yeah, another episode. Let's put. A pen in that I don't want to like go too far down like the rub up hole, but just, you know, to say that like any drug, even though it's I think really a huge societal positive, it can be misused. Yes, And you know, Layla was was was doing that right. It's kind of an easy shortcut to losing weight. Yeah. And she, she shared that her weight and it is highly concerning. So she has the same height as you. She's 5 foot 10. She was £99. Yeah, that's that, that is worrying for her health, for her heart. Oh yeah, those kind of health implications for sure. Yeah.

11:15 So that's ABMI of 14.2. Just for reference, the healthy range is 18.5 to 25 S Her lightest healthy weight would be 129 lbs. So she's 30 lbs underweight in those scenes, yeah. I just hope that like, you know, this could be true of a lot of the stories and the secret lives. Like you could argue this. What are we Season 3 or? 4. I'm 44, like it is so different from season 1, like it's completely different stories. And of course they're, you know, all at this sort of very pivotal time in life where the stories are going to evolve, things are going to change.

11:59 But I hope that it's just not taken as, you know, good TV, right? You know, like in terms of an intervention treatment, whatever that looks like. Like, obviously I can't say, nobody can say what's best for her, but I hope it just wasn't for TV, you know, and that somebody, somebody somewhere, her friend, like her family, I don't know, she doesn't. Well, she does talk about them a little bit, but somebody will just, you know. Help. Yeah. I mean, I think she talked about struggling with eating disorders since before the show, so for quite a long time. But I don't think that the show probably helped, right?

12:40 Because suddenly you are in the spotlight, right? You have a microscope on you, your body, everything people are seeing on TV, which let's be clear, is just a small part of their their actual life and their actual story. And I think you're seeing it to some extent with many of these women where like some underlying issues are being exacerbated by being in the public eye. I think we see it with Jessie, right? I mean, I think her struggles with with self esteem and stuff like that definitely predated the show. But you know, I, I think you might have listened to that interview on call her Daddy. Did you listen to the whole thing? I did and, and just talking about like her facial plastic surgery, which we talked about before and her looking back and just regretting it and like seeing herself on TV and being like what I was. I was so beautiful.

13:25 Like what was I even doing? And at the time she probably was self loathing to a high level. And then she's looking back and being like, wait, I was I was actually more than fine. Gorgeous. Yeah, that's. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. There was actually an article I just saw this morning. I think Heather Gay contributed to it. And it was, I think it's an Allure magazine. And it's called something along the lines of what is what is a Mormon wife look like now? And I just had a moment of wow, you know, because I had a lot of the the secret lives women.

14:06 And when you think of sort of when we were in that age group, what a Mormon, Mormon woman quotes looked like it. I mean, it's massively different. So different. It was cap sleeves and Dynese modesty Shields. Shorts down to your knees. One piece bathing suits. It was like, and even when you look at sister missionaries back then, like they were literally like dressing in potato sacks. It looked like with dog Martin boots like it was so you know this push towards hide yourself like and and now it's just a complete 180. Oh yeah? Did I tell you I had an encounter with the sister missionaries on campus last week? Would tell you more about that.

14:55 Well, I was just walking out to my car after a campus event that you organized, and one of them kind of came scurrying up. She was like, do you know where parking services are? Oh yes, that's right, they got. Booted. Yeah, I was like, I I do. And she's like, can we walk there? Our car got booted. But I was. So it took me a minute for my brain to sort of process what was happening because she had the missionary name tag on. Yeah, but she was just dressed in jeans and AT shirt. Yeah. And I was like, wait, what? Wow. Yeah. So like, things have certainly evolved. So much. Yeah. And so I was like trying to explain where it was. And then I was like, you know what, I'm leaving right now. It'd be faster for me to just drive you over there. Do you want just, like, a quick ride? It'll take two minutes.

15:41 And she was like, Oh my God, yes. Well, she didn't say Oh my God, of course, but. Oh gosh, golly gosh, yes. So you know her? Yeah. Three other sister missionaries all piled into my car, and I drove them over to parking service. Oh. My God, I'm so glad they came across you though because they're just so vulnerable. Oh, I mean, they're little babies, you know, and for whatever feelings we might have about the Mormon, like, these are just sweet girls just trying to, like, fix a problem that they had. That is just they should not. Have like, yeah, I know. I was like, why do you think that you got booted? She was like, well, I think the missionaries that had the car before us got a parking ticket and never paid it.

16:22 I was like, Oh yeah, that that'll do it. I can speak from experience that that will do it, yeah. Although I do believe parking services are a little. Harsh. Oh, they're terrible. I have a little vendetta with them right now. Which I'm. Yeah, I'll tell you later. I'm gonna get food in. Well, no anyway. Well, we'll get into that. They assigned me a ticket for a car that wasn't mine and refused to to change it, so that's cool. That's takes it like a large degree of of mind bending to do that by this like that's incredible. Yeah, they wanted me to prove that I don't own the car. I'm like, how can I prove I don't own a car that I don't own? Other than saying I don't own that car. It was also enough also at a campus I've literally never been to.

17:02 I don't even know where it is. So let's say you're good cars. You don't own places you haven't been. Melissa is everywhere. You're like the Holy Spirit pretty much everywhere and nowhere. All right, let's bring it back to our secret lives of Mormon wives. Why did we talk about, oh, the sister missionaries? That's right. And like the dress standards that have changed and just sort of, you know, some of the, the freedom and license that they they have that we didn't. And, and to be clear, I think that's great for them. Yeah. They're sort of making their own path with this. Yes, is is good, I guess, although I guess it could go either way because then you sort of worry about it kind of sweeping under the rug some of the systemic problems that we've talked about before. I mean, obviously these these women's experiences and the Real Housewives experiences, this is not representative of the average Mormon.

17:54 Woman in Utah, Yeah, I can't say any of that was ever my experience. And and yet it just worried. Like, I love the side of it where they are confident and they're claiming their bodies and their self and they're not inserting the Dynese modesty Shields into their beautiful clothing. And then to me, it also feels like a whole extra other thing that they have to worry about to be a perfect Mormon wife because the whole idea of being a Mormon wife is so traumatizingly steeped in perfection that that's just a whole other layer. So now on top of all the other things and Oh my God, there's just so many places to go like Zach with his, you know, passive aggressive comments to Jen about, but they want their mother.

18:44 And you know, so you have to be a perfect mother. You have to be a perfect wife. You have to make money, but not make money as well because you don't want to emasculate your husband. But if you do make money, then they have to step in it. But now on top of it all, you have to produce tons of babies really young and be perfect looks wise and you're the body has to be perfect right after a baby and perfect perfect. Like it gives me anxiety even thinking about that because you know, it's, it's just another layer. So in addition to being the perfect Mormon wife, you have to look like a perfect Mormon wife now too, whatever that is. So. Yeah, it's 100%. It's a lot. It's a lot. Oh my goodness, these poor, poor women. And when you take it to sort of people in the real world, shall we say, I mean obviously you know Jesse runs a very successful business.

19:32 I knew some of them do work, but you could maybe argue on some level that if your full time job is just going to events and always being in glam and looking good, that's such an unrealistic standard. Yes, except for the average human. 100% I think that's a fantastic point. I mean, I can imagine like 20 or 30 something Mormon wives watching this and feeling like why do I not look like this? But the reality is that this takes an enormous amount of time and money and people and people like you have people sure like to put the glam on and whatever, but even, you know, to maintain that level of thinness takes time and or money, right?

20:17 So you could do it with the the GLP drugs, you could do it with going to Pilates every day. Fuck you, Chris from Relova's blindness again, right? But but that takes time and money. These things are expensive. OK, so that's unrealistic for a large number of of people. And that's not even mentioning right the plastic surgeries and the procedures like the facial procedures which. Are inaccessible to most people. Yeah, they can't afford them. Or maybe you just don't want them or that. Yeah. And the time poverty element too, I think as well. Like if you're this young person that has all these children and maybe you work out the home too. And so you're you still have to maintain the perfect home, you know, the perfect sex life with your husband, the perfect meals, all the things like when are you supposed to do any of that?

21:04 Like it's quite literally impossible. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're seeing some of that on the show with poor Michaela, Right. Oh, my God. That's another one my heart just bleeds for. And at the beginning, like when we first met her husband Jace, I was like, oh, he seems like one of the less problematic ones. But then when we find out that he impregnated her at age 16 when he was 21. Yeah. And then we saw him last season on the show whining about not getting enough sex. And it's like this girl who was sexually abused as a child still has not even begun to process what has happened to her, and you've knocked her up four times. Yeah, and it's starting at 1616.

21:46 Like she hasn't caught a breath and it's it's manifesting in her body like it's coming out and all her. Well, she has a an autoimmune disease, yeah. Yeah. And you're just like, wow, that that mind body connection there. And his first and foremost concern is. Yeah, she's not putting out enough. Not not enough. And the expectation that that's somehow a right when you're married, I know is deeply embedded in Mormonism like that. That's that's one of your functions. Right as to provide yes, exactly to be a sex implement. Basically, I mean, yeah, it's he to meet you.

22:28 And I've had this conversation many times. He is the quintessential nice guy, right? So that gives him scope to do anything because he thinks he's a nice guy. Yeah, and he has a lot of the phrases down right, a lot of the the therapy speak or whatever. And he's encouraging her to go to therapy. But it it also seemed to me like he really expected that that was going to be kind of a quick fix. Yeah, like we went to one therapy set. Are you good now? Right. Like we've done have sex tonight. Yeah. We've done a month of couples therapy, right? Like, why isn't everything better? And then like, he has a little temper tantrum because she doesn't want to have sex. It's unbelievable.

23:09 Wow, yeah, I what is even happening there? I am confused. Are they divorced? Are they not divorced because I saw? That like, I think there's this week, I think they're separated at this point, Yeah. And I don't know who knows. Stay tuned. Stay tuned for that one. Well, should we move on to Jesse? Let's move on to our. Girl Jesse our girl Jesse Messy Jesse Messy. Which I say that with love. In a in a good way. Yeah, I I really, I really am pulling for Jesse, OK? I'm not saying that every action she's taken is like top tier. Yeah. But you know what? We all make mistakes, right? She is all of us. She's all of us. Messy is OK yes cuz we all are yeah so.

23:52 She is getting divorced. We found out so Jordan, our least favorite of dad talk somehow. I mean, it's a real race to the bottom, but the. World's least favorite? You could argue, right? Now, I think everybody hates Jordan right now, except maybe Dakota. Yeah, he is really. He has really showed himself. Or he's really showed. Who he is? He has like he showed himself to the world. Yeah, I mean, he was never great, but we didn't see enough of him, I think, in Season 1 to really appreciate the depravity and disgustingness of this man. Like. You know, we could get all bitchy and mean and be like, what does he even look like? But let's not look. Shame him.

24:33 No, but. But let's shame everything else. His character. Let's shame his his behavior, his entitlement, his abuse. Yes. OK, all right, so let's do that. So what we found out from call her Daddy was that Jordan filed for divorce. They had agreed not to do that, but suddenly he ran to file really quickly. Yeah. Tried to put a muzzle on her, right? Tried to put a clause in that she couldn't go on podcasts. Right. She already had call her daddy booked before that, but he clearly didn't want her to speak out. Yeah. And listening to that interview, we can see why. Oh. Yes. So I think the biggest bombshell for me out of that interview was his involvement with escorts before the whole Marciano event, which she was aware of before the whole Marciano event.

25:21 And I mean, my hat's kind of off to her for trying to protect him and his reputation, but girl, he did not deserve that. Especially when we think about how he responded to her and as everybody is saying, what she did was not right, but like there was a much bigger context and for him to sit and say our children, well, you know. Yeah, you were unfaithful, like telling the whole world, putting it on camera, like giving interviews, all that stuff. Yeah, well he is hiring escorts before this and potentially going to sex parties and we heard. That as well paying for them with. Her money.

26:03 Which is like, wow, there. I I've seen this before. I saw this in a in an ex partner of mine who was also an ex Mormon, where there's some kind of, and this is not a defense of it. This is just a wow. I'm kind of observation. There's like some kind of disassociation in their heads that they're being unfaithful, that what they're doing is, you know, quote, UN quote, not right. But yet they can be like, well, who are you talking to? What I mean, he seemed very jealous and very controlling, extreme, a hairy guy and Marciano and all those people, but yet there's some kind of disassociation. It was kind of like Zach when he was shouting at Jen for being at the chipping deals while sitting at a gambling table. Right, you're just gambling away her money. Yeah, you're just like, But wait, what? Like where is this list of moral depravity? So kissing a person you're talking to wrong. Hooking up with a hooker?

27:04 OK, you know what I mean. Two thumbs up, Totally fine. There's some kind of like disassociative moral equivalency reversal. I don't know. What is that? Oh, it's bizarre. Yeah. I don't know God. Like, the audacity level of him being able to and dude knew what he was doing when he's like, our children will be so disappointed in you. Like, that is so yucky and abusive. Yeah. And, you know, meanwhile, he knows what he's been doing, right? Maybe just don't say anything then. Yeah, I can't. Maybe. Just feel like you know what mistakes were made, let's go to therapy or I don't want to continue this relationship. Let's break up.

27:47 Both of those are valid responses. Those are options. Yeah but instead what he did was blackmail her, right? Remember the story where he like had all like the text or whatever between them? Like ready to post a TikTok and every one time they had a disagreement would be like I'm posting it to TikTok right now. I'm going to ruin you. I'm going to destroy you is. Disgusting disgusting and how on earth could you ever have been in a marriage with somebody who does that or is like you. You have an agreement for the benefit of your children to about the divorce, but two point score or look like he had the upper hand files the divorce like that is like it's you can't even compare it to a child because a child may not be that.

28:29 Devious, like, yeah. And then lies to her and said, oh, I didn't think it would get out. And she's like you literally emailed TMZ. What, like clearly that's the dad talk route right now is like Direct Line to TMZ, Yeah. Right. Exactly. And then lie. Lie. Lie. Deflect. Deflect, deflect. Like, Oh my God, yeah. Unbelievable. And, you know, I feel like the bombshell, I feel like that was the bombshell. We also heard a lot about emotional abuse and control. Yeah. I feel like that was less shocking though because we all saw it happen on camera. I mean, I think that was obvious from not even this season. Yeah, the one before. Definitely. Like it you were like, OK, something is not right here. He's mistreating her.

29:10 Yeah, this is emotional abuse. And and that's, again, we've talked about this in terms of, like, Bronwyn on Real Housewives, Like that's what he's willing to do on camera. Just imagine what he's saying to her off camera. 100% like, like you think that all the time when you see these circumstances in public, you're just like, wow, you know, not even on TV, but just in public. You're like, what is happening behind closed doors? Like you can only imagine. Yeah, it's really concerning. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Her and the hotel part really highlighted that. I think too, because I don't know about you, but I was always like, girl, why are you leaving? Like that's your big beautiful. House like that you that you paid for with your money. Yeah, and like they just recently moved there and you're just like, but she mentioned in I keep going to call it call me call me daddy.

30:00 Maybe that's like some some latent fantasy that's like stirring in me. Well, her. Daddy. Yeah. We need to find Claire. Daddy, if you've got to hook up, let us know, please. You can text me. That is horrifying, yes. So call and call her daddy. She talked about because, you know, the host kind of alluded to that too. Like why, why are you leaving girl? Like why are you not saying? And she had said about she was worried he would have put cameras and stuff and like, Oh my God, why? Why should you be worrying about those things in a marriage? Like, that's kind of horrifying. It's definitely horrifying. I'm sad for her that she stayed as long as she did. But at the same time, I get it right? Like I get sort of, yeah, you do as well, right?

30:43 We're like, we know, girl. Sort of like the whole the devil, you know, and like, oh, I can deal with this and like, maybe it'll get better and maybe it's all in my head. Yeah, right. I mean, that's kind of the pernicious part about emotional abuse, is it makes you feel like you're the one that's broken. Yeah. And you're the one that's wrong all the time, because that's what you're being told all the. Time. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of a deep, dark mind fuck because you oscillate between, Oh my God, maybe it is my fault. And and then you withdraw from not only your spice, but your friends and your people because you're in this like deep self examining, like, Oh my God, is it me? Like what you know, And then you'll have moments of fuck no, it's I see what's happening here. But then right back down.

31:28 And she alluded to that right when she said she had mentioned divorce before and he would kind of talk her out of it. And you know it. It really is just a giant mind bend. Like, oh, absolutely. I mean, the part where even this, this most recent time where she's like, no, I'm going to file for divorce. And he said you're just not healed enough. You're just not healed enough. Right. Again, you're the broken one. Like, I'm fine. You're the one that's broken. Yeah. And I'm, I'm sure like that same dynamic played out again and again. And then, you know, it gives me even more empathy or her like acting out right. And like, you know, having this sort of emotional connection with Marciano, you could totally see it.

32:13 Like this poor woman isn't safe at all in her marriage. No, right. And finally someone is giving her some attention. That seems like a little less disgusting and abusive, right? It's kind of no wonder, right? 100% Then of course it's self sabotaging because you're like, Oh well, yeah, this confirms that I'm the broken 1 and I'm the one that you know, and Jordan used that. You could see it happening. I'm sure he was almost delighted when that came like cuz he was like. Oh, now I'm not the bad guy. And now I have this to hold over her head forever and ever and ever. Huge stick to to beat her with essentially I again, not saying that it's right what she did, but I think it's understandable in those situations where particularly if you've been with like a harsh person for a while, it kind of becomes the normal.

33:03 And if I think if you experience you and I have actually talked about this like dating, if somebody shows you even like the tiniest degree of tenderness, you're like, Oh my God, what is this beautiful moment? Yeah, you helped me pick something from the floor like, oh, you know, because you're so used to harshness. Yes, and you didn't even realize you're so used to harshness. And so, you know, I'm not saying that that's the right way to go about it, but Esther Perel has a really famous Ted talk about that. I think it's called. I actually have no idea what it's called, but it's like something about like why we cheat, why people cheat, but it's it kind of has like a clip bait title. But she goes into the psychology of, you know, it's generally cry for help or and it doesn't excuse the behavior, but it contextualizes it and it just it's classic Jesse. Situation Oh yeah 100% and I just want to repeat what you said just to like bring it home it wasn't right but it is understandable yeah yeah I mean this poor woman it's. Because it's not a good place to live in to to have that constant harshness.

34:16 And like his mood was never tender. And I think that the the longer the show goes on and obviously it is a show, but I think you are starting to see some character treats come I. And I never thought I would ever, ever say this, but like, Connor is kind of coming I for the win. I mean, yes, part of that is lack of competition. Yeah, but he. Seems to definitely be the least problematic man on the show. Or when his wife is sad, he is responsive and doesn't try to blame. Her yeah he seems very sweet right I wasn't he didn't go to the villa right he was like I just I don't feel good about that and I'm not going to go I was like wow hats off to. You Connor.

35:01 Well, and even the way he talks to Whitney about her career, I never knew this. He dudes, it's like a head fund manager. Yeah, he was like, apparently out of all the dudes, appears to have the largest earning capacity of any of them. So could theoretically, but not. But in the Mormon world, like let's remember we are in the Mormon world. Women do not work outside the home, never mind to earn more money than you. And so out of them all, he could could be the most standoffish. And you know, the things he's saying to Whitney, like your career, it's just your time. Like, let's focus on you. Meanwhile, Zach's like, well, I, they want their mommy.

35:43 I, it's not really fair when he was like skipping his classes at Med school. Oh my God. Like, you don't skip classes at Med school. My God, people. Will die. I mean it was a tier 4D O school to be fair. Like it wasn't even the MD program. So are you serious? Oh yeah, it's a shitty Med school that yeah, it's barely a Med school. Oh, God. Well, maybe we should be thanking everyone then that the tea is not going to practice on humans. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I would not like to have him as my eye doctor. Yeah, exactly. Oh, God. I'm so grateful for you and your your knowledge. Yes, that is. That's kind of that's kind of scary, but yeah. Wow.

36:24 Yeah. Do you think it's worth mentioning? I mean, I think this applies to Michaela and Jesse, but kind of in different ways. The whole idea of like, it's, it's almost like sex is used as this ordering tool. Yeah. And so you would imagine more for Jesse. It was the reverse of Michaela, right? Like in a rejection, not feeling beautiful, not feeling like enough for your partner, where is like, you know, Jace is just this little thirsty bitch, like all the time giving her a hard time. Perfect description. Yeah. You're just like God. It's used as a as a tool, which is something that women can often be accused of, right. Just by existing.

37:11 Yeah. Why are you attempting me so. But. Oh, yeah, You can't win, right? It's like, why are you tempting? But also why aren't you putting out right? You're like constantly be alone. Yeah, yeah. So it's just interesting to see that. Approach. Well, there's a very transactional element to it. It feels like to to their sex lives and that's gross. It's it's so. Gross. And it's really dehumanizing it it. Really is and it's I like the the that you use the word transactional. I, I don't know whether to share this or not. I keep being reminded of a story that a good Mormon wife told me a very long time ago about her situation and how I think she kind of suspected something wasn't quite right, but didn't really have the the, I don't know, the words or the just like, what is my role supposed to be here in a marriage? Am I just supposed to be a vessel for my husband to derive pleasure from a condom?

38:14 Yeah. A what? Condom. A condom. Oh wow. Sorry, that's very crude. No, that's like, so visual and effective. But yes, like, you couldn't have put it better. And yeah, like, obviously for a lot of normal women, it's their first experience with sex, right? And so, you know, she kept getting these chronic UTI's. And I was like, girl did like, you need to pee and you need to like, just like, I just don't know why it's happening. And, you know, I had shared one time about how upset her husband was when one of their babies started to cry when they were having sex. And she was instructed to lift the baby, nurse the baby, and turn around so he could what?

39:00 Turn her into a cum dump. Basically is disgusting. It's so. Bad. Oh my God, fuck that. Guy and I tried to tell her like that's not. OK, that's not normal. That's it's supposed to be a, you know, bonding like you 2 together, having a lovely time and you shouldn't have to feel like you just need to be available and that you're sorry that an infant woke up and needed food. I want my. God, and so I, when I watch this show and I see how sex is leveraged in both ways, that story just kept coming to my head. So much of like this really sort of negative narrative about sex and Mormonism, right? Because it's like, until you're married, No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

39:51 And then you get married and it's go, go, go, go. Go go, go right it it goes from the sin literally next to murder right to your your duty to like serve as a sex toy for your husband. How psychologically can you pivot like? That, I mean, it's fucked up. And and also, you're literally a child. Sometimes you're 18 or 19 years. Old or 16 if you're Michaela. Oh my God, that. Poor, poor woman. That's, yeah. I, I mean, 16. I just can't help but put it in the context of my children. Yeah. And when you think of them at that age and you're just like, Oh my God.

40:32 Yeah. Wow, There's a lot. There, there's a lot there. There's just one more thing I want to say about Jesse before we move it on to TFP. Yeah, the gold. Yes, she, I think many of us can relate to what she described, which is feeling it in her body before she realized it in her mind like this, knowing that she needed to get divorced, that she needed to leave him. This feeling of not wanting him to touch her at all, crying after sex because she felt so violated, right? Just because her whole body was rejecting this man in this situation as it should have. But it took a while for the mind to catch up. And I think that's something that I don't know, it just should be highlighted because I think that's a common experience for many of us, this idea of feeling something in your body. I can definitely relate to that.

41:25 100% also can relate and I mean, there's a lot of science behind that, right? I'm like one of those people that uses science in a very broad Melissa tell us the science like in a non specific branch of science. But there's research, right? Well, mind body connection, right? Like I have done trauma informed courses for teaching yoga and the nervous system and all those kind of theories behind that, right? And there's a large body of research that about feeling things in our body that your body will tell you before your mind essentially if you're listening. And it can manifest in all kinds of things, right?

42:09 Like. Heart palpitations, weight loss, weight gain, hair loss, and Yep, I almost had all gain but not that. Heart gain would be nice that. Would be a nice byproduct, but but yes, like you and I both have experienced all those things and or that tension or, you know, crying after things happen because you're just like. Yeah, crying after sex, losing 10 lbs in one month, right? Like because you just stop eating, Yes. Yeah, and your wee body is like literally fighting for survival, but it doesn't. It's it's chasing or you think you're being chased by the tiger, and the tiger could be your husband or your partner or. Right and it activates that fight or flight right response. But also, what are the other two FS? Freezer fawn.

42:56 Freezer fawn. And the ladies tend to fall into the fawn, right. Or the freeze. Yeah, well, why we stay so long, right? Because we're trying to make it better by fawning after everybody. I, I, I was a monumental fawner. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we we go to those spaces and thank you bodies, like bodies that we criticize and poke and prod and think are never enough. Are, you know, they're amazing. They are amazing and I wanna make just one comment about what you just said and it's kind of like similar to the whole body keeps the score. Like whatever. I know what you're getting at. I actually really don't like the phrase mind body connection because biologically your body is your mind.

43:39 Your mind is your body. It's one thing. It's not 2 separate things that we need to integrate. It is. It is one thing. I love that, sorry I cut you off. No, no, it's OK. And I just, I don't like dualism, whether it's supernatural or this idea that like your brain is just kind of riding around and your body is the vehicle. Your neurons are distributed through every single little bit of your body. So they are the same thing. I love that you just give me like a giant epiphany because by virtue of the fact that they're calling it a mind body connection is actually kind of reinforcing that disconnection. That's right, that duality where actually no duality is OK. Let's advocate for rephrasing or reframing because yeah, I what is it you said something about like it's like your body is a speed vehicle driving around with. Right, but that's not how it's organized. I love.

44:30 That OK let's put a pin in it another episode every episode I feel like spawns through it's like the hydra y'all you cut off 1 head and three more two more arise in its place so. We'll never run out of material. We'll never be done. Nope. OK. Are we ready for our girl? Deep breaths. Taylor, Frankie Paul. Yes. Let's go. Let's go. I mean, where, where do we start? You and I've discussed this before and we were, I think, slightly divergent on our views, but a lot of other things have come out. Since then and I think that's OK, we don't have to agree on everything we can send. We can just have a nice little discussion about it and I think like, let's preface this by saying there's a lot we don't know. Uh huh. OK so that, you know, video which was incredibly hard to watch. Yeah, but I did watch it came out. We have several other allegations of domestic violence.

45:18 Yeah, we know that the season of The Bachelorette has been cancelled. I really hope they reversed that. I want to see it so bad. Yeah, I think there's talk that they are. Did you see that this week? Did. And then I hope that in some format we do get to watch it. Yeah. But yeah, I guess we should just say we don't know everything that's going on. So some of what we're going to be saying is speculation, but I think we can still have a good discussion. Sort of, yeah. Placing it in larger context, not necessarily saying we know, like, what's happening, but kind of have a discussion about domestic violence, yeah. How men and women relate to each other, how abuse works, this kind of thing. 100% and particularly specific to not Mormonism. I'm not suggesting A correlation at all with with Mormonism in particular.

46:07 That said, I think there's maybe a Utah specific mentality and I think evidentially speaking, like it's not just Taylor, Frankie Paul right there. There could be other examples. And I love what you said as well. Like we're speaking about this in a context because no, no shade on her. She's going through hell right now and no shade on anybody. Like we can joke and be like, oh, your husband's ugly or this thing's, you know, but like these are are are big issues that are probably just indicative of all of us. Could be any of us have been us at different times. And you know, they're all just being played out in these very young humans, all of them very young humans. And it it's upsetting.

46:54 And I think one of the things has really irritated me this week, particularly coming from like the other Mormon mom influencers, is all the shade by her. Like they're so happy about her perceived dine fall. And I hate that. That's gross. I hate that too. Yeah. So that's what not what we're doing. Yeah, we're not here to shit on Taylor, Frankie, Paul at all. No, not even close. But we're also not here to defend domestic violence. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. What was your so the video, you watched that as well? Yeah, we saw Taylor strangling Dakota, right? We saw her throw 3 metal bar stools at him, the last of which hit her daughter.

47:37 Yep, in the head, right? We heard the screaming, we heard Dakota trying to calm her down. And then after the end of the video, we know that, you know, the sort of altercation continued in the garage. The cops were called and she was arrested for domestic violence. Which is kind of brings us all the way back to season 1, right? Like where it? Started. That was the end of Season 1, right? We've known that this whole time. Right. But not all the nitty gritties. But like, you know. Yeah, but we didn't see the video, right. So the description I feel like underplayed what actually happened. Yeah. Or it could be a hook. It was a very well crafted hook.

48:20 Sorry, Irish accent. I can't say that Hook. I love it. Hook. Hook. I don't know. I can't like, you know, I just, I have so many thoughts on feelings on on feelings, thoughts on top of feelings. On top of thoughts, on top of feelings, multi layered. We don't need to approach this in an outlined or academic way. Just start talking. We'll just have a conversation about this our usual. Format exactly, but I think it works. I think it. Works. It just it it works. Read the comment about messiness it. It it works. You know, I just, I have so many questions, like something you said stood out to me like that we see on the video Dakota trying to camera dine.

49:03 I did not see Dakota trying to Cam her dine. I and again, I'm not dismissing any of the other stuff, particularly stuff in front of kids, right? Like absolutely not condoning or trying to. Justify. I know you're not. None of that. I also have experience with a certain type of man. Shall we say that? I mean, and it's not just me, like I, I think everybody, well, a lot of people have made the correlation with the Gabby Petito case. Did I say her name correctly? Because I think I kind of messed that up often where we have the video of her and her partner, and she is absolutely like, unconsolably beside herself. And so the police officers and her partner, like, yeah, she's crazy, right?

49:54 And yeah, she's sequestered off and she is crazy, crazy and made out to be the bad guy. And what's missing from the Taylor, Frankie Paul video in that video is what happened before that. Right. I think we don't know. I think we have we. Could never know. Yeah, I think we have Dakota's account of that, but I don't, I don't think we know the whole story. And it's, it's more to say like we could never know even if the both of them came out and talked about it, you could never know, right? Because we're getting their accounts and we are of what's happened. And you know, she's hinting at well, I'm gonna come out with my story. Nice. So she she is done with this.

50:34 No, that's true. She did give an interview a couple years ago saying that she was the aggressor, OK, Saying that Dakota did not. Yeah, you know, at least that night, right. Physically abuse her or anything like that. So she did say that. I don't know, right? We don't have video of the whole sort of thing, right. But I think the story was he picked her up from a party, yeah, where she had been drinking and she wanted to go to a concert. They went home to get her ID, but she was incredibly intoxicated. And so then he didn't want to go. Yeah. Worth mentioning, he's also an addict in recovery, so he doesn't want to necessarily be around alcohol, which is very understandable. And then, you know, she wanted to go, he didn't. And somehow this this altercation broke out and it seems like it went on for quite some time before that video started.

51:20 Yeah, which again is, you know, could could also indicate a larger picture. I just think I see this, I almost said this semester, I see in this semester of the Secret. Lives Secret. Live Studies. New course proposal. All my worlds are blending right now. I just into one big beautiful. Balls. So it's amazing. Yeah, it's, it's great. So this semester, this season, you know, I also noticed that a lot of the other women are being more vocal about what they have perceived in Dakota and Dakota's behavior. And there's just a lot going on there, which is I think why it's difficult to take a position.

52:09 And also, should we take a position you know? Because I don't think we're taking a position. I think we're just talking about this, right? I think we're just sort of discussing and kind of working out ideas, workshopping. Workshopping this semester, yeah. I mean, I think we've seen plenty of kind of problematic behavior on Dakota's part. And once again, it is hard to tell from these shows because they are heavily edited. It's a show, you know, we see a very, very tiny glimpse, yeah, of what's happening. But, you know, we have, like, seen him calling Taylor names over texts, right? So we've seen some verbal abuse. Anyway. We've heard Macy's account, like, she really doesn't like him. Yes, she thinks that he's kind of verbally abusive, whatever. So I think that that is true. I think Dakota has behaved in a lot of sort of bad and toxic ways.

52:54 And Dakota does not deserve to be physically assaulted. Nobody does, right? Nobody does. And yeah, I maybe I'm just projecting too many personal things on here. It's understandable. So if I may share a. Story I would love and I'm sure our listeners would love for you to share a story well it's. Just it's contextualizing, right? Like this isn't intended as a trauma dump, but it's more contextualizing some of that attitudes that that go towards this. And I, you know, I haven't come to anything decisive or conclusive. Again, it's just thinking about it all because Taylor is also, I mean, just data points, the most successful person on that show, like social media following off all the things.

53:45 Yeah, she's the breakout *. Yeah. And and, you know, I think that there's always an attempt to take people out who are doing well, of course, but also like she did do it. So it's, it's not like, you know, it's conjectured. Like there, there is video. And I do also find it interesting the point at which a person will pull out a video. You know, it's kind of like, I have never loved those Instagram videos of people recording themselves crying. Oh, yeah. And, and some people, like, make fun of them. They're like, so you set up a tripod. Got the lighting perfect right? Like makeup brushed your hair?

54:27 You know, there's a it's just, it's very contrived, right? Because it's like, are you really filming your breakdown moment? Because when I am having a breakdown, my first inclination is not to video it. I like absolutely. I certainly don't put makeup on. I would never want that video. You know, shared because that all look good. No, like it's just it's not where your head goes like you're kind of captured in your grief instead of like turning it into a show. But you know, I have like a story from someone else in a personal story relatable. You know there's a there's a freeze also called reactive abuse, right? I'm not a psychologist. I have no training in this area.

55:08 I have heard about it, read books about it, where you're seeing the reaction of somebody after hours, possibly hours and hours of some form of abuse, physical, mental. I also think that sometimes part of abuse can be like, how do you free assist? It's there's a blurred line between physical abuse where men can claim they're just restraining someone or, you know, I'm sorry, my phone is making all kinds of signs here because we we have our children on emergency breakthrough. And so the noises, despite trying to silence things come through.

55:52 So I apologize for everything. OK, yes. All good. That's so nice of you to check. Thank you. This is why we have emergency breakthrough. Yes, so, so yeah, there you the hours, like literally in some circumstances, hours proceeding and then you're capturing someone's breaking point, which I think they came out and said was the case with Gabby Petito, right? Like that's right. They captured this moment not of her being just crazy out of nowhere, but like after hours, maybe even days of just this constant, like poking, poking, poking. And so I'm open to the video of Taylor, Frankie, Paul. Again, not that it was right, but being part of a larger picture like this. Yeah.

56:34 Can I also say there is the phenomenon and again, I'm not a mental health professional, so maybe I'm not even saying this, right, but there is this. There are relationships that can be essentially a dual role relationship where both people are abusers and both people are victims. Now I am not saying that that is the case because I do not know, but I'm saying that is another. It's another thing that can happen 100% and in their case, like it's clear, really not very healthy. Well, I think we can all agree on that is that this is a very toxic relationship. Outside of those videos, yeah, just the dynamic, the, the push pull. And you can tell they're both just, like, love me, love me I hate you, Like, yeah, like, positive things aren't happening.

57:15 I don't want you, but no one else can have you either, right? Like that on both of their parts, right? Yeah. Yes, I mean, there's, there's not a good dynamic there, but I, I actually had a relationship with a person and I'm kind of ashamed to say this and I would not be caught by this in the future. And at least I don't think or don't intend to be. But when I started dating this person, they told me repeatedly over and over and over again, which is the red flag too, because it was like trying to reinforce a story that wasn't true about an allegation of abuse that they had faced. But it was framed in. She slapped me across the face and ripped my clothes off my body because she was such a raging wench. And I was told there were pictures of the ripped shirt. And, you know, so you're like, Oh my God, like, that's, that's horrifying.

58:13 I'm so sorry that happened to you. That's well. So you're like, OK, you're telling me this story about the these egregious things this woman did to you and you owned a little bit of the argument. So, you know, they said I, I, I did this thing like I, I kicked an inanimate object and I shouldn't have done it. And I own it. And so that story is like, oh, wow. Like you were both having an argument. Terrible things happened, you kicked in a door, but she physically abused you. So I come to find out leader a key component of the story that this man left out. What a shocker.

58:56 No, in that let's just say they kicked to smithereens a receptacle that would hold a child. Oh no, the child was not in the receptacle at the time, but in the room. So that's a really big part of this story that kind of changes everything, right? It does change everything. And I think in in Utah, I don't know where this took place, but one of the one of the charges against Taylor, Frankie Paul is like not just hitting her child with the chair, but the fact that the child is, is witnessing physical abuse. That's actually child abuse. Exactly. And even if they're a baby, I mean, again, neither of us are psychologists, but we know that zero to six are formative years. And you know, you know that from being parents, right? And so, you know, there can be key even even like to take it to a different place like Jesse and Jordan, right? There was like key factors.

59:53 Left out of the story. That then you go, huh? And again, I'm not accusing Dakota of anything he did or did not do. I'm just saying I have experience of a. Story where this woman was presented like a monster. And you know, I can't say that I would have reacted any differently than to slap somebody if my, I felt my like baby was in danger. Not even a child, but like a little baby, you know? That's terrifying. Yeah. And so again, not suggesting slapping or hitting someone is that we're OK. It's how you face it really. Well, it's not OK, but it's understandable, right? And leader with this person. There was also an event, shall we say, between the two of us where I ended up with bruises, but it was framed in the light of I was protecting myself.

1:00:50 Just to give some stats here, as we know I'm like 5-10. I'm probably around 140 pints. This person was 6 foot 4 and 280 pints. So I say that not to be like they were a brood of a human, but that if we're really looking at if if I was posing any kind of threat, which I did not put my hand anywhere near them in any way, shape or form. If you were having to be restrained where there's that kind of difference between stature. Like, yeah, there's. Could be some questions asked there and after like it was a very bad argument because I had seen some correspondence on their phone.

1:01:33 Shall we say that they, you know, probably shouldn't have been doing and this is this is how it all started. And at the time, one of their children was asleep in our house, but on a different level, a different level, asleep, so not observing. And they kept saying to me, how dare you bring this up in front of a minor child? And I was like, wait, what? Right, the child's asleep downstairs, we can have an argument and. Also, you know, I appear to be the person pinned on the floor right now, not you so but you know what I mean. But he his commentary on that was he was trying to cami dine. And I think that's why I get so when I hear Dakota was trying to cami dine like was he or was he actually pouring fuel on the fire to what could could really have the emphasis on the could beforehand? And when this all happened in my circumstance, he went to walk off and I, I, I grabbed his shirt. I'm just like, no, you don't get to walk off. And he ripped his arm and his shirt ripped. Guess what happened next?

1:02:41 The video. He pulled out his phone. My shirt is ripped. You did it just like that other woman to me. You ripped my clothing off me, which is where I was like, wait a minute. I see a correlation. Yeah. Ding, Ding, Ding. You know, so like I say, that was intended to be a trauma dump, but to be like a, you know, it's easy to say a woman is crazy and that things can look a certain way. My question is always like, and what was happening beforehand? Maybe nothing. Maybe, you know, she really is quite a violent person and I need some anger management. That could also be true. But, you know, as we've said, we're talking about this more like contextually. And I think in Utah in particular, there is this kind of pervasive idea of crazy women. Yeah, sorry, I am taking just a second to process here. I'm not sure I heard your last two sentences because I am sitting here incandescent with rage and just horror on your behalf.

1:03:42 So what I heard was that you called a man out for his bad behavior and he physically abused you and then accused you of physical abuse. Yeah. Yes. I, I mean, I, I, I knew this already, but hearing you tell it like that is I have no words. I am. I am physically shaking with anger right now. Well, and I am so like, I don't mean to no. No, no, stop, stop, stop. I'm not going. Back into Mormon wife mode I'm. Sorry you do not apologize and I am also not trying to center my feelings about this. I'm simply describing the emotional reaction that I'm having to hearing about your physical abuse. And I feel the love from that.

1:04:25 That makes sense. Yeah, I just wanna stop. Not to like center my feelings, but just to underline that this is not okay. It's. Really not. It's disgusting. It's horrifying. I think this person should serve time. I do too, not just for me, but what I know they've done before to other people. Because it doesn't happen in isolation. It doesn't. No. Like, like people are who they are. And it's thank you for that, by the way. And, you know, I just think it's, it's like, can we talk about how long after that event it took me to get it straight in my head? Like, we're talking months.

1:05:05 Yeah. You know, and thank God, finally about six months after that it was done. And, you know, I think people will always say things like, oh, if that ever happened to me, I'd be at the outdoor immediately. I'm sure I would have said that. Too sure, but people it's, it's hard to to know how you would respond because it's not an isolated incident. No, right. It is part of a pattern, I'm sure. The emotional abuse, well, I know the emotional abuse preceded the physical abuse. Financial. Abuse, financial abuse, all, all verbal abuse, like, all right. And and, you know, kind of like what we were talking about with Jesse, when you're so deep in it, it is sometimes really difficult to see your situation accurately.

1:05:46 That is so beautifully put. You know, because you just get to the point where it's so stacked. Yeah, that you, the only way I can describe, and we were together for quite a few years, is you. You just don't know if you're up dying sideways or backwards. It is just all a scramble in your brain. Yes, because you know, and we've seen this in Jordan like no interpret it this way. This is my interpretation of it. So this is the. Story right. You're wrong. Your feelings are wrong. Your body is wrong. All of it's wrong. All of you is wrong. I'm the only one that knows what's happening. And, and I mean it, it sounds like it would be so easy to dismiss just sitting here talking about it, but it's not when that's the reality.

1:06:26 You're living day in and day out, every minute of every day, you know, being constantly criticized. Yeah, it's, it's really actually difficult to break out of that even a little bit mentally and really, you know, take stock of where you are. And that. Yes, exactly. And remembering as well that people don't tend to behave like this in week 1. Well, no, of course not, because people can hide who they are for some amount of time, yes. Because obviously, sure, when people say things like we'll just walk away, you're like, well, sure, like at at that point you could. But, and it's even more difficult in Taylor and Dakota's case because they share a child. Like thank God I didn't share a child. With this person because.

1:07:09 That's a whole other really difficult layer. Like, you know, you and I have both been divorced. They're the agonizing part of that are kids, right? Like cuz you're like, oh, what's it going to do to that? Like that's always your worry. Of course it rips you apart. It really does. And it's, you know, so there's so many layers, but I just, I think culturally, again, I'm not, I'm not blaming the faith of Mormonism, but I'm, I'm, I am asking for accountability to the cultural mentality of the purpose of women, the role of women. You're not ever supposed to get upset, right? And if there's any degree of upset, then again, why at that moment are you taking a phone ITE why are you not being in the situation to actually try to maybe offer comfort?

1:08:00 Like, you know, I I I don't know, I don't have an answer, you know, but like, he should have went and held her. I mean, she was Harlan Stools Adams. So that would be hard. But yeah, you know, I think it's just so much bigger than what happened. And and also thanks to Jesse, we know, like do you give that video to TMC and then get a restraining order? Because clearly we know from the series that Dakota felt quite comfortable getting naked and having sex with Taylor, so. Many times since that incident, so. Where was the restraining order there? Well, I think the reason is, and again, I I don't know, but there was another incident in February which we don't have the details about yet. So that that could be the reason trying to, you know, go for the most generous interpretation.

1:08:51 Yeah. I also don't think we know 100% that Dakota sold the video to TMZ. Now, of course, that is the most likely scenario, right? But we we don't know that for sure. Yes, 'cause I yeah, I'm trying to think back to what Jesse said. She, she, she says she thinks that it was Dakota. She doesn't know who else it could be, but she doesn't have first hand knowledge of that. So I, I think it probably was Dakota that sold it to TMZ. That makes the most sense. But I'm just saying we don't know that. Absolutely. His roommate said opposite. He said that he didn't release it. Well, I, I don't take that, you know, seriously either. Of course, we just don't know. Why does he have roommates? Sorry. I mean, probably because housing is expensive to save money, I don't know. Sorry I got really judgey with that because I always feel like, you know, the mom provides a home and the dad's just like I'm good get roommates or a one bedroom apartment. I don't know, I'm projecting against fine. Maybe he's being financially responsible. I I don't know, maybe?

1:09:49 Dad talks not doing so well. You know, I think can we just all agree that we're we don't need dad talk like dad talk can please go away forever. Like I don't like any of them except Connor, sort of. It's. Kind of painful. It's really painful. Like, I don't want to see Zach on my screen ever again. I don't need to see Dakota. I really don't need to see Jordan. Never. Grandpa Brett can go away forever. Like please stop. Maybe he could go pursue his singing career. You know, it's ridiculous. Yeah, they I think just the the nature of also, you know, the I think the concept of mom cute is actually so cute, right.

1:10:30 Like I was a stay at home or my mom for a while. I would love to group of friends and something like that like that would have really, you know, being a stay at home mom is is a challenge, right? It's isolating. It's you want to have people for your kids to play with, like you want some company, you want to be able to talk to other people and be like, is this part difficult for you or do you like this part or I think something like that would have been incredible. And you know, and it's sort of fetus form. You see mom talk is like just this they're they were just trying to do a thing. I don't even know if they were trying to start a company or get rich. They were just having fun as a stay at home moms, you know? And.

1:11:10 And here it is. It's this thing. And now they're like, yeah, but what did my dad talk? Like shut up, Jordan. It's not connected to you guys were all having your life and it worked like Cam, do you have to have everything like yeah. Gross. Yeah, lots of feelings on this. Lots of feelings and one more feeling I have about Taylor, Frankie Paul, You know, I have really felt really sympathetic towards Taylor the whole time. Now, watching that video, I was not feeling very sympathetic towards her, I would say. But I think just sort of what we have seen of Taylor's family, her mom and her stepdad, God, I do not like them. No. I think that Taylor has had some emotional abuse growing up.

1:11:52 Yeah. And, you know, that's me speculating. So if I'm wrong and if I'm off base, then OK. But the way that they will speak to her I find really problematic and disturbing. And I think I read somewhere that she witnessed abuse in her childhood. And that does not excuse any of her behavior. But once again, it contextualizes, right? Like, hurt people hurt people. And, you know, most people who are abused as children do not grow up to become abusers. But there is a higher chance than average that you know they would perpetuate that cycle of abuse. Or at least seek it out as a familiar component of a relationship. Absolutely. Like I kind of think and you know, did Taylor date her mom like, you know, and or her dad in the context of, you know, just because there's always that it feels like this tension. I think you're exactly right with like the mom there. She's always just like like pushing and shooting and criticizing.

1:12:51 And that's like their dynamic, but at the 4 of it is love me, you know? Yeah, her mom seems very jealous of Taylor. Yeah, she seems like she wants to be Taylor, right? We see it with the facial procedures, trying to look more like her, right? So there's like, this kind of pretty intense jealousy there. And then when we see when they film the whole family, most of the time it's her parents and sometimes even her sister just criticizing Taylor nonstop. They have a lot to say. They do. And is it true that, you know, Taylor is messy? Yes. Is it true that she's done some things that aren't great? I mean, obviously we saw it, but like it doesn't feel like a loving, supportive dynamic to me. It does not, because when we are in a shame Sparrow, the last thing we need is more shame. And I think they just heap it.

1:13:39 They do and like just. Kicking her when she's down non-stop. And so I've had a soft spot in my heart for Taylor like this whole time. I mean, again, less now, but but also, you know what I just hope for her is she gets like therapy and help and and and turns it around, right? Yeah, and and finds peace, like honesty for all of them. Just please like some peace because there's there's just a lot of of difficult things going on there. And you know, I heard that she lost custody of ever. Yeah. Which if that was in any way leveraged by him to be a punishment just to her, which I know can sometimes happen in divorce settlements, not on such a big scale, but maybe in terms of like time or money. Or you know that that it's not out of an intention to be with a child, but to harm the mom because understanding, you know, the care they have the child or any of those things. True.

1:14:41 At the same time, that's not really like Dakota's decision or her first husband. What's his name? Tate maybe? I can't. Remember, but I mean, a judge had to approve that and one can see that that would be an easy call having looked at that video and and knowing that a child was harmed in the course of that altercation. Yeah, I I mean, that's where it's not him making the judgement, though adding in things like a restraining order to help contribute to a picture, I guess don't help either. It's just, it's hard to know. Like, you know, that saying like the best interest of the child, you know, it's is it. And again, this is just me having word vomit. I haven't concluded, but like, is it in the best interest to take a child that you can even see from a show is very clearly bonded to their mother the way or you know, I don't know, I don't have any answers.

1:15:33 I just think it's so just there's just so many layers. Yeah, I mean, these are these are tricky things for sure. They are very tricky things. So we could finish with a a talk we both recently went to where kindness was emphasized. Yes, not in its right way, but in like a you know, it's it's so complex. So maybe like Mormon mom influencers layoff the shame on Taylor right now with the you know, have you seen the ones that are like they're sitting outside the temple and they're like this and knowing I'm not like Taylor fragrant, like they are mean. Yeah, that's that's really gross.

1:16:13 I don't like that at all. No, of course on. On the other hand, I also don't like her supporters who leave comments like I wish she'd thrown another chair. Yeah, like that's also disgusting because. It's not. Healthy or good for, it's disgusting. 100% like stop that stop both of those things no throwing things I I I was going to make a joke about throwing tears, but I think it's too soon so I'll not yes, but just don't throw chairs yeah just. Yeah, and and once again, no one deserves to be physically abused ever. No. Or or kids. To see that no. Just let's all try to be nicer. Oh yes, radical kindness. Radical kindness from from everyone they're yeah what I see this season I really like enjoy is the wrong word but was interested to listen to call her. Daddy, good job.

1:17:07 Yay winning it life. The coffee has kicked in though. You know, it was a it was a helpful episode, shall we say. And I also just noticed like there really is such a just tit for tat, like I'm gonna up you on an insult. I don't know. It's just, it's, it's just a lot going on there for everyone. It's a lot, yeah, I. Hope they're all OK. Yeah, me too. I have a lot of compassion for all of these women, even Taylor. I really hope she can turn things around. And I'm I'm trying to activate my kindness for dad talk. It's been a real uphill struggle. I mean, I'm, I'm trying to give grace, but I think what I need to see is like any effort and improvement or being less shitty from them. And then I could, you know, maybe find more compassion in my heart.

1:17:58 Maybe you just have to get past the nausea like right and then the feelings, the. Feelings, yeah. Could kick in, Yes. Well, the golden question for you, Melissa Rella. Yes, my dear. Can mom talk? Survive this. I hope that they do. I hope that Mom talk survives and thrives. And I hope that Dad Talk does not survive this. I mean, not literally in terms of the individuals, but we don't need Dad talk to be a thing. I don't need to see these people anymore. Please go back to your regular day jobs. Yeah. Just just go back there and thrive. At least. Just go away. Yes. But this is not your gig. This is theirs. Exactly. I don't mind a little dash of it now and then. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Well. We wish you luck, Mom Talk.

1:18:40 Yeah, good luck. We're rooting for all of you. Yes, all of you and all the kids and just all the people involved. So, and all you salty hoes and salty Bros out out there, we're rooting for you too. Yes, I hope that you are thriving, not just surviving. Yes, I hope that you have a lovely week. And yes, I godspeed everyone. We'll talk to you next week. We're night from the salty hoes. Take care. Goodbye now. Bye.