Feb. 3, 2026
Hoops, Heresy, and Being the Bishop's Wife: Claire's Mormon Exit Story
In this podcast episode, from 'Deep from Behind the Zion Curtain,' the Salty Hoes, Claire and Mel, discuss their experiences growing up in and leaving the LDS (Mormon) Church. They delve into Claire's personal journey, which began in Belfast, in the North of Ireland, when she discovered that the Mormon church had withheld the priesthood based on skin color.
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Welcome.
Welcome.
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It's the salty hose coming at
you from behind the Zion
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curtain.
This is Claire.
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Hi, this is Mel.
And we're so excited to be back
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with you to share the weird and
wonderful things of the real
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lives of ex Mormon ex wives.
So thank you for taking a minute
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to listen to us today.
Yeah, Thank you.
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We're excited to be here.
So this week we're going to
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delve into my story of how I
left Mormonism.
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You've already heard males so.
We're And if you haven't, go
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back and listen.
Yeah, that's your homework.
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It could be after this episode,
you know when you get to it.
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Or press pause, go back so you
can do the the chronology, but
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we're going to talk about that
today.
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But before we jump into that,
how was your week?
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Anything exciting?
Yeah, my week was pretty good I
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guess.
Hmm.
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I actually had a date last
night.
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Ohh.
Yeah.
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And who is this?
First date, Second date.
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This is a second date.
Ohh, I know.
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What a Unicorn.
I think there might be 1/3 date.
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Actually I think there will be
1/3 date.
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Ohh.
My goodness.
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Well, stay tuned.
Yeah, we'll hear more about the
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possible third date Saiga.
This is good news.
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It is good news. 1/3 DI, don't
even remember the last time I
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had 1/3 date.
Well, I don't want to jinx it.
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Because we've had two so far.
Well, they both.
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Went really well.
Yeah, great conversation.
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They both lasted quite a long
time, several hours.
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Oh my.
Goodness, we just couldn't stop
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talking to each other.
It was kind of lovely.
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Oh my goodness.
Right.
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OK.
Hope.
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Yeah.
Hope for the listeners.
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Hope.
There is hope.
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OK.
So we'll put a pin in that.
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We love a wee dash of hope.
Indeed.
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This is good.
How was your week?
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It was good.
I feel like I really like humans
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like adulted.
I love that this like I feel
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like I did stuff like
multifaceted stuff.
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I did try to flirt this week.
Yes, look at me, I did try to
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flirt.
I'm I'm currently not on apps
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looking, but I sort of
reconnected with a a person I
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haven't texted in over a year,
but that is it's whole other
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story too.
So we'll put a pen in that as
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well.
OK.
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Yeah, sounds like we need to dig
deeper.
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I there, there's definitely a
lot to that, but I mean, no
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meeting a person because God
forbid that you would ever
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actually do that.
But I mean, clearly that
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happens.
Well, it happened to me.
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It happened to you?
Crazy it happened to you.
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So I I also went to an
interesting party.
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I may actually be slightly
hungover this morning, although
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I do think there's a little
migraine starting or migraine,
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migraine, migraine, migraine.
See in Ireland they say migraine
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and but I it's all mixed up.
I don't, I don't like know
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what's from where anymore.
So a wee migraine Migraine.
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Slash hangover maybe?
Slash possible hangover.
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I don't know.
Yeah.
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I mean, you know, I'm not a big
drinker.
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I know I'm, I'm actually like
quite a lightweight, which isn't
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true to my Irish heritage,
which, you know, people always
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point out.
But I had three whole drinks
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last night.
Oh, my.
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And I feel like trashed wild
woman, a wild woman. 3 gins.
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They were beautiful gins, but
wonderful.
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Were you at home or were you out
somewhere?
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What was the situation?
So I went to a party with an
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interesting name.
So it's at Squatters, which is a
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great Salt Lake original honors.
I love squatters.
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Yep.
So for our people that are not
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from Salt Lake City Squatter's
Pub, it's great.
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Their own brews, really good
food.
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Yeah.
I saw it and at a great price
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point too.
And this is not an ad, by the
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way.
Yeah.
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They don't pay us squatters.
If you're listening, you should
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pay us you.
Totally should bring us to
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dinner, but that's yeah.
I had no plan to mention
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squatters, but it just came out.
There you go.
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But yeah, I walked in and she
said, you know, oh, how many for
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your table?
And I said, oh, I'm actually
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here for a private event.
So I was the deit of we are
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Shrenda.
I actually have living here.
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So I was her deit for the night
and she looked at me and she
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said infectious disease and I
was like no but and then I was
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like Oh yes, yes.
So that was the name of my event
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and hilarious.
I walked up the stairs and the
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wee board said infectious
diseases and I was like, maybe
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could they have called it a
different thing?
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I don't know.
So, but I guess nobody would
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crash it because they maybe
thought we were like a gathering
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of people with infectious
disease.
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You know, as a biologist, I I
love that name.
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Yeah, quite a lot.
It's it would be like a good
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punk band, like Infectious
diseases.
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Absolutely.
Yeah.
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So.
But it was actually, you know,
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doctors and great researchers
who study infectious disease.
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But it did look like a potential
gathering of people with
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infectious diseases.
So that just tickled me a little
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bit.
I was like, wow, this is like a
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a fun party to be at so.
That sounds really fun.
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It was good times.
It was good times.
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So yeah, I did two whole things
this week, flirted and went out
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of my house so.
I'm proud of you.
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Thank you, me too.
Well, should we dive in?
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Let's dive in, my friend.
OK, so Claire's story, we're
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going Mormon stories on you
again.
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Hat tip to Mr. John Dillon and
all the good work he's done.
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I will try to summon even a
fraction of his interviewing
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skills here.
All right, so Claire.
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I think you're better
personally.
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No shade to him, but.
Thank you.
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I have.
Some feelings there, but I
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you're, yeah.
He's got a lot of experience and
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I, I will admit, I've only
listened to a few episodes, to
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be honest.
But in our very first episode,
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our introductory episode, you
talked just a little bit about
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your Mormon background.
So we want to dive in a little
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bit more.
So you mentioned that your
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mother had converted to the
Mormon church, the Church of
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Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints.
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Yeah, before you were born,
right?
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Yes.
She was like 17, so she was
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really just a wee teenager.
Amazing.
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Yeah.
But then she kind of wasn't so
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active and then rekindled her
love affair with the Mormon
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church at some point.
So tell us about that.
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Yeah, So she stepped away for a
moment.
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She moved to London with my dad.
My dad does not believe in any
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organized religion and he, well,
that's too strong a word I was
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going to say, is contempt
equally across the board, but he
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really doesn't.
He just doesn't care for it.
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So he never had a phase of being
Norman.
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Did he ever go to church with
you?
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No, OK, he just was like cool
you do your thing that's great.
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But you know I'm not a believer.
In fact, you know, because I am
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the person of 500 story shooting
off of my brain from anyone
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sentence in my head.
But I think it's worth sharing
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when they were dating, the
missionaries were, you know,
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always trying to, oh, hey, you
know, get my dad to take the
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discussions, all that kind of
stuff.
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Worthy priesthood holder exactly
for this poor, fragile woman.
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There's nothing fragile about my
mother, but just that idea.
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And so my dad was a military guy
and he was a young guy in the
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military.
He was off in Germany, living on
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a base there for the British
Army.
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And, you know, they were trained
in different techniques,
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including being captured and,
you know, interrogated or
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brainwashing or coercion and
things like that.
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So he had some grounding.
Some background, one might say,
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in the techniques that were
being used.
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Is that where we're going?
Yes.
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And I'm not, I'm not like
casting shade here, you know,
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because if the church works for
you, great.
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But they were trying to, you
know, the different tactics that
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they're trained on, obviously.
And my dad, he's I love my dad.
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He's like my hero.
He's a very soft spoken, kind,
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gentle person.
And you know, he wouldn't be
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rude to people.
And he just said, I'm, you know,
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appreciate your company.
It's fun to hang out.
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He's like, but just so you know,
I'm very conversant in
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techniques of coercion,
brainwashing, etcetera.
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And he just said, lads, this is
not going to work on me.
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OK, love that he was just
upfront about.
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That he was just clear.
He wasn't rude.
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He wasn't like, you know, saying
derogatory things about the
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church.
He's just like, this is not for
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me.
I know what you're doing.
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I understand these are the
techniques.
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And again, not to suggest that
missionaries are going like one,
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I'm here to brainwash, but
they're, you know, it's like a
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marketing job or a selling job.
You're taught techniques.
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Yes.
So he was like, happy to hang
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out.
Please do not bring this up
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again.
So I don't know whatever they
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wrote in their little books that
they had just nobody ever asked
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him ever, ever, ever, ever
again.
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I can imagine.
Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, it's
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not aggressive, but it's very
direct and clear.
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I admire that.
Yeah, and he's just like, please
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stop.
I'm not converting.
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I love this woman.
It's cool if she goes.
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Let's move on.
Not for me.
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So OK.
Yeah.
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So then as you were growing up,
how did this work for you?
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So your mother was Mormon, Your
dad that wasn't.
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Where were you in all this?
Well, I just hadn't even heard
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of the Mormons.
So remembering again that I grew
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up in a place of like sectarian
religious violence.
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I mean, you could say religious
violence, that was a facet of
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it.
So what really mattered where I
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lived is if you were a
Protestant or if you were a
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Catholic, right?
And in some cases it was a
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matter of survival.
So my wee 7 year old Brianne
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didn't go beyond that.
I just knew Protestants.
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I just knew Catholics.
I knew that our family was a bit
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warm because we weren't really
major churchgoers of any kind.
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And sometimes my mom let us go
with the neighbors to Sunday
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school at the Presbyterian
Church.
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Sometimes we went to Mass.
Like wow, it just wasn't really
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a thing.
And just to be clear for our
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listeners at this time in
Belfast, when you say this is a
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matter of survival, people
actually were losing their lives
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in this conflict, right?
Yeah, based on if they were a
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Protestant or a Catholic.
So, you know, it was all
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interwoven into what school you
went to.
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And even still in America, if
you meet somebody from, you
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know, the north of Ireland,
you're like, what school did you
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go to?
But like, it's a, it's a
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question more than what school
did you go to.
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It's like, let me ascertain your
identity using my 6th sense that
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I developed, you know, and I
mean, you can tell by looking at
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the the football shirt or soccer
jersey, as the Americans would
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say, you can make a guess at
somebody's religion.
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If you look at their jewelry,
even you can make a guess at
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their religion.
So.
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What about the type of whiskey
they drink?
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You know, I I'll have to ask my
brother-in-law about that one.
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Maybe so.
I don't know.
226
00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,320
I would say probably, yeah.
If you're a Protestant, you
227
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,440
probably drink Bushmills.
Right.
228
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:31,920
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's
right, yeah.
229
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,760
Did you have any situations
where you're you felt like you
230
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,600
were in danger or you had a
close call?
231
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,920
Oh yeah, always.
I mean, I think always every,
232
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,560
well, every person.
Like if you asked anybody from
233
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:49,200
like, I'm not unique in that
sense, but I mean, absolutely in
234
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,760
terms of the religion aspect.
So the schools, if you went to
235
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,160
public school, you were
considered a Protestant, then
236
00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,400
they had Catholic schools.
Obviously you were considered a
237
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,560
Catholic.
We had two when I was a
238
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,960
teenager, only two schools in
all of the north of Ireland that
239
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,720
were intentionally integrated.
So they were, you know, think
240
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,720
the South in America, like they
wanted to bring Protestants,
241
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,440
Catholics together to educate
them.
242
00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,520
And but usually if you had like
a hippie parent, you went there
243
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,320
because they were kind of hippie
dippie.
244
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,840
Like 5.
Yeah, I get it, because not
245
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,000
everybody's going to want their
kids to actually be integrated
246
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,600
and then community with people
that are different.
247
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:35,880
So I was a wee bit of a weirdo
because I went to a Catholic
248
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,080
kindergarten.
Then I went to a state
249
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,040
elementary, which I would have
been considered Protestant.
250
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,400
We had to sing God Save the
Queen and you know, all that
251
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,080
stuff.
And then I went to an integrated
252
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,280
high school because my mom was a
wee bit of a heavy dubby weirdo.
253
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,640
And then I went to a Catholic
High School, so nobody could
254
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,120
tell what you got.
The whole buffet I did.
255
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,040
The whole sampler platter
schools, all in the north.
256
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,160
Of Ireland.
And to your question, when I
257
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,160
went to the integrated school,
depending on where you were
258
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,640
walking in the city, you would
either receive a derogatory slur
259
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,640
for a Catholic, and then you
could be in another neighborhood
260
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,920
and you'd receive a derogatory
slur for a Protestant.
261
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,520
Oh man, because they're the same
day.
262
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,800
Really.
Yeah, oh, multiple times just
263
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,400
walking down the same Rd. as the
neighborhoods changed.
264
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,080
Wow.
And so we, we recall that we
265
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,920
had, as we described it, a lot
of phlegm dripping from our
266
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,760
ponytails.
Because if it's spit on you,
267
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,720
what?
Yes, So spit on you.
268
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,160
Yes, yes, but.
So we've been wild.
269
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,880
I have not know that.
Literal chunks of like phlegm
270
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,360
from your ponytail.
As a child.
271
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,760
I laugh.
I'm like, oh, Harvey laughed.
272
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,920
Yeah, but that, that's just the
way it is.
273
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,560
And, you know, those are the
more light hearted aspects,
274
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,200
obviously.
I mean, you know, some people
275
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,680
would get beaten up because they
were perceived to be one of the
276
00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:06,280
other.
There was a street that we
277
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,840
walked down to my Catholic High
School where right before we
278
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,160
walked to school 1 morning, a
man was shot dead because he was
279
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,400
presumed to be a Catholic.
So, you know, it's religion.
280
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,680
It was such a different thing
there.
281
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,080
It's so loaded.
So kind of when the Mormon thing
282
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,640
came along, it was like, oh, I
get to be other in a good way,
283
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,360
because authorizing is obviously
usually very bad.
284
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,080
Sure.
But you got to sort of step
285
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,440
outside of this Catholic,
Protestant divide.
286
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,840
Although our Mormons not
considered Protestant.
287
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,240
I mean, obviously they're not
Church of England or whatever,
288
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,280
Presbyterian or Anglican, but
it's still kind of in the vein
289
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,920
it came out of Protestantism.
Yeah.
290
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,440
And I mean honestly when you
look just culturally people were
291
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,640
very Protestant oriented within
the Mormon church, which might
292
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,600
signed absurd in the context of
the United States.
293
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,800
But there when it's so linked
with identity and whether you
294
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,200
want to be a part of Britain and
still remain in an occupied
295
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,160
space or if you would actually
like to be free and self govern,
296
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,000
you know, that's all connected
with what religion you're
297
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,600
perceived to be.
So my experience was that when
298
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,640
people who were had been
Catholic and converted to
299
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,040
Mormonism actually weren't very
welcomed.
300
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,000
Oh.
Wow.
301
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,320
Yeah, it was kind of like, oh,
you're one of one of them.
302
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,400
There was a lot of other ring in
that regard within the Mormon
303
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,640
church.
Wow, that's really interesting.
304
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,040
So they didn't really welcome a
Catholic with open arms
305
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,320
necessarily.
No.
306
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,520
And I mean, that's not true of
every case because there are
307
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,720
some people who were Catholic
converted and did remain.
308
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,920
But where I live particularly,
particularly, and it could have
309
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,880
just been the neighborhood, it
what, you know, people said very
310
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,440
absurd, rude things to people if
they came from a Catholic
311
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,480
background.
So it was a little different
312
00:15:58,480 --> 00:15:59,920
than growing up in the Happy
Valley.
313
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,720
I mean, just a little.
Well, I didn't grow up in Happy
314
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,280
Valley, but it's also quite
different from growing up in the
315
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,520
suburbs of Los Angeles.
Yeah.
316
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:15,120
It's just a wee bit different.
So my mom decided to go back to
317
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,040
the Mormon church when I was 7
1/2 years old.
318
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,600
So right in time for baptism.
Wow.
319
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,120
Yeah.
And what did you think of that?
320
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,720
Was that kind of a shock to your
7 1/2 year old little self?
321
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,800
Honestly, they had a basketball
standard in the gym and I was
322
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,720
delighted as they do so.
Yeah, I even in Ireland they
323
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,040
have a basketball gym, you know.
Interesting.
324
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,480
Here's a funny thing again.
I'm going to draw on about 5
325
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:42,880
stories but I will bring it
back.
326
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,720
If you walked into a Mormon
church in Belfast in the north
327
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,240
of Ireland, it's exactly like
walking into a Mormon church and
328
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,600
Bountiful UT it.
I mean it's the same footprint.
329
00:16:53,640 --> 00:17:00,160
It's the same design.
My former husband worked on
330
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,440
designing Mormon temples too.
That's that's maybe too well,
331
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,000
we'll just leave it there.
But.
332
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,079
Well, Tupples kind of have their
own design, but like the church
333
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,480
that you would go to every
Sunday, the ward house, it's
334
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,960
actually quite interesting
because here in Utah, sorry, I'm
335
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,280
going to digress for just one
little.
336
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,000
We love digressions.
Oh my God, I'm rubbing off on
337
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,119
you.
I love it.
338
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,000
You should see me teach.
I'm all about the digressions.
339
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,400
My students, if they realize
that they can exploit it to get
340
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,240
Oh yeah, you know, they're like,
keep talking.
341
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,400
Exactly.
Less material covered and on the
342
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,840
exam, but the ward houses, some
of the ward houses here in Utah
343
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,160
are actually quite unique and
quite pretty in some cases.
344
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,160
So there's the older buildings.
Yeah, there's houses, ward
345
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,200
houses with like stained glass,
really interesting architecture.
346
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,400
Yeah.
But as I understand it, sometime
347
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,960
in I believe the 1970s, there
was this move pushed out from
348
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,360
the central Mormon church called
Correlation.
349
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:03,320
And that was what made every
church that was built after that
350
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,160
look the same.
So there was a set of standards.
351
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,960
So that's where like that kind
of awful, depressing beige ish
352
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,080
like neutral dank color palette
comes from.
353
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,400
And that's where that very like,
you know, same, same
354
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,360
architecture, if you want to
call it that, boring
355
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,920
architecture comes from.
So it makes sense that a church
356
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,280
built in Ireland would look the
same as this one here, at least
357
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,440
a later 1.
And it probably looked the same
358
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,600
as the church that I attended in
California.
359
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,760
Identical, I'm sure they had and
that's the interesting thing and
360
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:45,600
why I drew in like my ex Mormon
husband too, because no matter
361
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,200
where in the world it was, it's
like the same, right?
362
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,880
And not only do they look the
same, and I'm glad you brought
363
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,240
that correlation thing up
because I think when you like, I
364
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,240
think I remember that night that
you mentioned that word, but
365
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,640
they would put in mechanisms
that don't work in other
366
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,040
countries.
Right.
367
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,360
So, for example, like heating
systems, we don't do forced air
368
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,920
in Ireland.
Like we don't need AC.
369
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,000
It's freezing like 100% of the
time.
370
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,240
Maybe with global warming,
you're going to need it.
371
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,520
So maybe they're just ahead of
the curve.
372
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,840
Maybe it was a prophecy.
Yeah, Yeah.
373
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,840
The Irish will need AC at one
point, but they would put in
374
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,480
just these systems that just
they they don't work because
375
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,160
they're taking a blueprint for a
church here.
376
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,560
Yeah, that works here.
Like we need that pivot between
377
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,960
cold air and hot air and, you
know, we have radiators.
378
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,240
Like it just, it's just so
interesting to me.
379
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,880
So I'm walking into this
building that I, I, I haven't
380
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,600
even heard of Mormons up until
this point.
381
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,360
My mom had actually never
mentioned it.
382
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,840
It's not like we were raised
with Mormon values.
383
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,320
You know, my mom had to
e-cigarrete and, you know, a
384
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,040
glass of Sherry on the odd
occasion.
385
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,960
So like, there was just no
concept of of Mormonism in my
386
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,840
life.
So I walk into this building and
387
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,120
you're even just like, what is
this?
388
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,720
There's a basketball hoop.
What?
389
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,280
There's a stage.
Why do we need a stage?
390
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,120
It's a church from the roadshow,
right?
391
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:13,320
Yeah.
And we?
392
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,920
Did Rd. shows?
You did Rd. shows.
393
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,480
We did Rd. shows and so you're
just it was like a whole like,
394
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,320
am I in Disneyland?
Like that's almost what it.
395
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,600
Felt like and you were excited
yes amazing because you're like.
396
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,200
Oh, this is American, you know,
because a lot of people
397
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,800
emigrated to America and you
grew up with American TV, and
398
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,760
all of a sudden I'm in this
little microcosm of America.
399
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,280
Wow.
Amidst all that turmoil outside.
400
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,400
So you're just like, oh, cool,
Mormons are cool.
401
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,480
And they've got these hot boys
that keep coming to our house.
402
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:49,480
So.
Yeah.
403
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,320
Yeah.
So what about what you learned
404
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,760
in church, like what you were
taught the doctor, and did that
405
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,200
resonate with you?
Did you like it?
406
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,880
Did you not like it?
Were you kind of neutral on it?
407
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,680
Do you remember?
You know, I, I was 7 when the
408
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,000
missionary started to come
around.
409
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,320
So they used to have those.
Some people will remember this.
410
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,200
They would bring a little slide
projector and they'd be like
411
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,360
beep and you would have to hit
the button.
412
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:16,800
So, you know, I was the youngest
kid in my family.
413
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,120
So they give the little button
to me.
414
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,360
And I just remember these like
cheesy movies they show us.
415
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,120
Like there was one about a man
who worked in the cigarette
416
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,520
factory and had this like, big
moral awakening and like left
417
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,680
his job or something.
And then there was that one
418
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,880
where like the mom dies and the
kid comes home from school and
419
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,120
it's all about eternal families
and so.
420
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,480
It was quite.
Entertaining actually, because
421
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,800
again, you know, these cute
American boys came to your house
422
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:53,160
with a slide projector and a
movie projector and they put up
423
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,120
a big screen in your living room
and like showed you movies like
424
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,320
it was all very exciting.
That sounds fun.
425
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,280
But I I had like they actually
never mentioned Jesus or God or
426
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,960
I just like America.
So yeah, I really didn't have
427
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,920
concept, like any concept of
doctrine.
428
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:20,000
I do remember my dad was
concerned just by virtue of the
429
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,600
fact he's like an 8 year old
can't make a decision to commit
430
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,360
to something.
And his attitude was, you know,
431
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,320
if you commit to something, you
should really commit to
432
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,760
something.
I support that, but I also
433
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,400
support you being aware of what
you're actually committing to.
434
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,000
And I don't think you're old
enough.
435
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,160
So he was actually against me
getting baptized, but of course,
436
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320
I was like the dad and, you
know.
437
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,840
Yeah.
And, you know, me and my dad
438
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,520
were very close.
I was his favorite.
439
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,240
Sorry sisters.
So were the baby.
440
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,280
I was the baby.
And so he he said, yes, my
441
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,800
sisters got baptized.
They would have been like, like
442
00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:02,280
maybe 11 and 14 at the time.
So, so yeah, I I had no concept
443
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:07,560
of really God or Heavenly
Father.
444
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,680
That was a new term.
Oh, Heavenly Father.
445
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,280
Yeah, that was a new term
because I just knew God, Jesus,
446
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,000
Mary and the Holy Ghost.
Do they call it the Ghost or the
447
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,400
Spirit?
Mormons call it the Holy Ghost,
448
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,600
but I would imagine that
Catholics and Protestants might
449
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,240
say Holy Spirit.
Yeah, sure.
450
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,600
I was getting those too confused
because yeah, so not really
451
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,920
concept of that.
The first sort of doctrine
452
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,440
awakening that I had was
actually when I was about 11 or
453
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:46,800
12 years old and Ireland was not
a very diverse country at the
454
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,320
time because obviously nobody
wanted to be coming into the
455
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,360
middle of that so.
Would that be a hard sell to
456
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,160
emigrate to Ireland in the
middle of car bombs and
457
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,280
shootings?
Exactly.
458
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,920
And spitting on children.
Yes, it's like, you know, we're
459
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,600
people were just not going to do
that at the time.
460
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,840
So, you know, I didn't I grew up
more with a sense of are you
461
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:11,800
president?
Are you Catholic?
462
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,920
It wasn't really rooted in race.
I didn't really have a concept
463
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,720
of, you know, the issues and
injustice that I know I know
464
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,280
about because I live in the
United States.
465
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,560
But that just wasn't sort of
really a factor of our our
466
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,800
being.
But I find out about the policy
467
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,320
of the priesthood and not giving
priesthood to black men, right?
468
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,200
And I was, as I say, about 11 or
12.
469
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,960
And I was like, what?
So this you would have found
470
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,720
about out about this after they
had changed that policy, right,
471
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,680
Because they changed it in 1978,
but that was still a fairly
472
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,720
recent thing.
Yes.
473
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,880
So it was like early 80s and I
was like, and my first thought
474
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,880
was, Oh my goodness, I'm going
to have to tell my mom because
475
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,680
my mom was very, as I had
mentioned, like we bet hippie
476
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,160
dippie, she was quite involved
in politics, but she was
477
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,960
involved in like the, the peace,
love and unity politics, not the
478
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,560
one side of the other.
So she had like a, a sense of
479
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,360
social, social justice, right.
So I knew that that would not be
480
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:20,520
good news for.
Her.
481
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,040
Makes sense.
Yeah, I was like.
482
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,080
Was that weighing on you?
Was that heavy?
483
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,120
Yes.
I was like, I'm going to have to
484
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,440
tell my mom this like terrible
news and that.
485
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,520
The church didn't allow black
people to or black men, we
486
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,560
should say, because they still
don't allow women, no women, the
487
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,200
priesthood, but they didn't
allow black men to have their,
488
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,440
their special priesthood before
1978.
489
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,120
Yeah, and you know, as I say, I
wasn't really reused with even
490
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,400
concepts of God or anything like
that, but I was raised with a
491
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,960
sense of social justice.
Which?
492
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,640
Is probably why I am now
humanities an International
493
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,920
Studies professor is definitely
a factor.
494
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,280
You know, like, that was just
always in my household.
495
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,920
Yeah.
And so I finally brought up the
496
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,440
courage to tell my mom.
And I was like, mom, like, I'm
497
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,920
so sorry.
Like, I remember crying.
498
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,080
Like, this is terrible.
They're not good people.
499
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,520
Did you think this would be a
deal breaker for her?
500
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,160
Oh yeah, I thought that was it.
I that was the way.
501
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,280
They never go back.
Gonna leave the church after
502
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:18,720
that.
Wow.
503
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,400
Yeah, because even as a young
person I did not feel good about
504
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,520
being associated with something
like that.
505
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,760
It just felt so fundamentally
wrong to my wee child soul.
506
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,040
Absolutely.
You know, and so and she goes,
507
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,840
oh, yeah.
And I was like, wait, what?
508
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:40,280
You knew?
And I'm not casting dispersions
509
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,840
on my mother at all because I,
you know, maintained she had
510
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,280
that social justice lens.
But it's the the church because
511
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,000
the answer she gave me right
after just come straight out of
512
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,640
the church.
She said, well, if you believe
513
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,320
Joseph Smith is a prophet, it
doesn't matter that it feels
514
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,960
bad.
And I was like, wait, what?
515
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,520
And so that's just the line for
the, you know, I asked that
516
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,280
question every set of
missionaries that came in, every
517
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,720
time the Bishop talked to me,
I'm like, please help me make
518
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,680
sense of this thing.
This thing doesn't make sense.
519
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,120
And I got that rode answer.
Well, if you believe Joseph
520
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,680
Smith is a prophet, it just all
falls into place.
521
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,760
I'm like, it's not falling.
So it was your your introduction
522
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,560
to mental gymnastics, cognitive
dissonance, those things that
523
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,080
many Mormons experience before
they become ex Mormons.
524
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,360
Exactly.
Even as a wee teen so.
525
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,040
All right, so you put that on
your shelf.
526
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,440
I mean, that might be completely
because you kept asking
527
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,560
questions about it, but you
continue to attend the church.
528
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:51,680
I, yes, I will point out that I
as a teen was not super thrilled
529
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:58,440
by church and I drank and I
smoked weed and had the odd
530
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,160
cigarette and the things that
regular teens just do and things
531
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,000
with boys.
And you know, I, I would do that
532
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,400
and then I would come to church
and then feel ragingly guilty,
533
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,080
like I was a terrible, terrible
person.
534
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,640
And I can remember young women's
which for the non Mormons like
535
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,880
there is a it's a the youth
portion for the ladies from.
536
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:25,760
Age 12 to 18.
That's it.
537
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,200
You get taught great skills like
ironing and.
538
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,200
We learned to.
We learned to put on makeup at
539
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,760
one point.
Oh, I well, you got to make
540
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,480
yourself pretty for the lads,
right?
541
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,800
So I remember one time one of my
teachers saying if you do
542
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,040
anything with a boy, anything,
you are basically like the sons
543
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,760
of perdition, which was a phrase
they like to roll light.
544
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,720
So basically like the devil.
Himself.
545
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,600
Yeah.
I remember that being taught to
546
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,520
me as well, that, you know, the
worst sin was denying the Holy
547
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Ghost and that the church was
true.
548
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,920
Yeah.
The second worst sin was.
549
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,200
Was murder.
Yeah.
550
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,080
And then the third worst sin was
premarital sex.
551
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,680
Yeah.
Or any other sexual activity
552
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,040
that wasn't condoned.
Yeah.
553
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,240
Like next to murderers, like,
can we just point that I like,
554
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,440
Yeah.
They use those words.
555
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,200
It's literally next to murder.
Yeah, so again, your poor little
556
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,200
hormonal teenage head that's
like having feelings and wanting
557
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,960
to explore is going wait, what I
OK.
558
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,160
I'm condemned, I'm the worst
for.
559
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,320
Oh, I want to give your teenage
self a hug, Claire.
560
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,960
I I know it's hard.
It's, I know, yeah.
561
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,080
Like the guilt?
I've been there.
562
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,040
Yeah, like, you know, you were
in that environment too, because
563
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,000
it's like you're fighting
against everything you're
564
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,360
feeling.
And like I am a freak.
565
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,120
I am a Sinner.
I'm, you know.
566
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,360
What's wrong with me?
Yeah.
567
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,320
So that was that was my teenix
like experience.
568
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,640
I, I wasn't like super into it
and actually funny story.
569
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,080
So the Mormon church sparked my
love of basketball and by the
570
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,840
time I got to college, I played
basketball at college, which
571
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,280
you're all going to be so
impressed right now when I say
572
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,200
that in Ireland, No, like it's,
it's not the same.
573
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,600
It's just like the people that
you hang out with and go to the
574
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,200
Students Union and have a beer
with.
575
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,160
And I mean, nobody comes to
watch your games or anything,
576
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,880
right?
Like you're just just fun.
577
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,280
You're just playing some ball,
you know?
578
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,800
We should play some ball.
We should.
579
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,680
I love it.
I'm really bad at it.
580
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,000
Me too, but I love it.
OK, well, we should.
581
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,200
We should.
Like I have honestly for like
582
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,760
the past decade tried, tried to
find a pickup game for like 45
583
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,040
plus year old women in Utah.
Haven't found it yet.
584
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,760
But yeah, maybe we'll start one.
Search continues.
585
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,400
Yeah, the search continues.
So we had a lot of fun together.
586
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,480
I had a a lot of fun with more
than one of my basketball
587
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,440
coaches.
I will add they were other
588
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,760
students.
There was no okay, that's good
589
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,200
predatory behavior happening.
So yeah, it was my social
590
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,080
circle.
I loved it.
591
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,280
And my mom would how use a BYU
student, you know, they do the
592
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,920
study abroad and then they'd
send them over to examine the
593
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,800
people of Ireland for a week,
you know, And so they'd asked
594
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,080
church members to for free,
bring a complete stranger into
595
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,720
your home and give them an
experience of Ireland as you do
596
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,360
of an evening.
So my mom had this boy from
597
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,520
Provost staying in our house.
And so she'd just be like, take
598
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,360
him somewhere.
And I'm like, we're I, I like
599
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,640
he's a Mormon because we went to
bars.
600
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,200
We went to clubs because that's
just what you did.
601
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,120
The drinking age is 18, so you
can go out.
602
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,000
I didn't necessarily drink, but
that was just our social life.
603
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,720
So she's like, take him to the
basketball.
604
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,800
So I took him the basketball,
the basketball.
605
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,120
So I took him with me.
He was all excited.
606
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,480
And all my friends there were
like, oh.
607
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,040
Claire.
You were so Irish lying for
608
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,400
being drunk as wrote off and
they were like you were wrote
609
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,400
off last night.
You were so drunk, you.
610
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,480
And I'm like, like.
Jesus, no.
611
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Mormon boy here.
Like just donut dying.
612
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,240
And they kept going on and on
and on and I was like, Oh no, my
613
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,320
cover's blown.
Like my, you know, my wretched
614
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,040
teen years.
My my covers blown hilarious.
615
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,160
So yeah, that was, that was
awkward.
616
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,640
So that's how I, you know, I
wasn't like a super duper Mormon
617
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,840
teenager.
Yeah, sounds like you were kind
618
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,200
of conflicted about it, maybe
not living all of the principles
619
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,720
that they would prefer.
You to live.
620
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,840
As well as some doubts, at least
regarding, you know, the 1978
621
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,440
switcheroo.
Yeah.
622
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,560
So then what happened?
Like why didn't you just drift
623
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,840
away from the church like a lot
of people do in your situation?
624
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,640
So I think there were just a
couple of events that sort of
625
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,480
solidified me being in the
church, one of which was like
626
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,200
uncontrollable guilt for the
things that I was doing.
627
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,160
You know, I it's we joke and say
Irish people have a lot of
628
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,200
guilt.
You know, there's cultural
629
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,280
differences.
There's also the Catholic
630
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,880
influence there of guilt as
well.
631
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,360
And then the Mormon guilt.
Like it's like, Oh my God, my
632
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,920
guilt complex is neither size of
Texas.
633
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,120
You have the guilt trifecta.
I have the guilt trifecta.
634
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,120
The guilt Trinity.
Yes, three.
635
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520
And yeah, one.
Let's join that church.
636
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,160
Yeah.
So there's that aspect of it.
637
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,120
I also have ADHD, which was not
diagnosed too much later in
638
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,080
life, but maybe that could be.
I mean, I know there's stuff
639
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,480
around rejection sensitivity
with ADHD and things like that.
640
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,640
So like, I don't know if that's
a factor in it.
641
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,960
But there I just had this, this
guilt where I thought that if I
642
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,040
didn't start being a really good
Mormon, that really bad things
643
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,840
would happen.
And I think that maybe part of
644
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,720
that was also linked to, sorry,
this is like getting quite deep
645
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,400
and heavy, like realizing some
of these things, but with the
646
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,320
unsafe world that I lived in
because there was conflict.
647
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,400
And so you're like, OK, if I'm
good, I'll be safe.
648
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,239
I won't get hurt.
My family won't get hurt.
649
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,159
Like you're you're just
struggling to make these
650
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,639
connections.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
651
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,960
And I feel like, I don't know if
you heard that explicitly in
652
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,480
church, but I feel like that was
some messaging that we did here
653
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,480
as well, even though I grew up
in an incredibly safe
654
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,320
neighborhood and situation.
Yeah, I can totally see how that
655
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,120
would have resonated with you
and why you would have latched
656
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,280
onto that.
Yeah, like the idea of the
657
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,920
protection right and.
Right.
658
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Even the garments, which of
course you wouldn't have been
659
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,560
wearing at that time.
Yeah, if we have any, you know,
660
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,080
non Mormon listeners that are
not familiar, Mormons have
661
00:34:56,159 --> 00:35:00,120
special undergarments that they
wear once they have been through
662
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,680
the temple ceremony.
I never wore them because I
663
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,400
never went through the temple
ceremony.
664
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,400
But they have this this idea
that is taught in church that
665
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,360
they will protect you from harm,
not just spiritual harm, but
666
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,800
actually literally physical
harm.
667
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,120
Yeah, and that's a, that's a
deep worm to Burrow in
668
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,840
somebody's head.
Yeah.
669
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,000
Because then obviously you're
not going to take them off,
670
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,040
right?
Because you're going to feel
671
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,360
like something.
You're not supposed to, right?
672
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,040
You're unprotected if you take
them off.
673
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,760
Yeah.
And again, if they work for you,
674
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,680
that is great.
I'm so happy for you.
675
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,080
It's no shade on them, but it's
so important to highlight how
676
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,320
that actually can cause a lot of
psychological distress.
677
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,320
Absolutely.
And when you're young, you don't
678
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,000
really understand why you just
have this feeling.
679
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,280
So I actually then, you know,
Speaking of ADHD, just went all
680
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,760
the way to the other side.
And I completed about four years
681
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,720
of seminary in like 6 months.
Oh wow.
682
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,120
Because I felt like I had to
complete it otherwise the
683
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,400
protection wouldn't be full, you
know, so I couldn't just do a
684
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,320
couple of weeks again, that's,
you know, the hyper focus.
685
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,440
I had to go all in.
So I am trying to do my like
686
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,840
high school leaving exams and
catch up in four years of
687
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,800
seminary.
We didn't have it like the
688
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,920
school has it here.
We we just got the little
689
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,680
folders and worksheets and you
know, again, for the non
690
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,720
Mormons, it's it's a basically
religious instruction about your
691
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,000
faiths on a teen.
Level it's supposed to be.
692
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,600
Yeah.
I did 4 years of early morning
693
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,000
seminary, and some of it was,
you know, they followed the book
694
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,320
and then some of my teachers
went way off script and spent a
695
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,920
year talking about how the
apocalypse was going to go down.
696
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,440
So that was fun.
Anyway, that's a different
697
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:52,360
topic.
Oh, yeah.
698
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,640
I don't want to derail it.
Another episode.
699
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,960
You worked through essentially 4
years of religious instruction
700
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,080
in six months.
Yeah, I did.
701
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,920
And it was a lot.
And but I got lots of positive
702
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,640
reinforcements like, oh, this is
good, this is good, yay.
703
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,960
Like and you know, obviously
then like your leaders latch on
704
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,760
to that.
They're like, she's coming back.
705
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,960
So there was a lot of, you know,
outreach from the young women's
706
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,600
president and the Bishop.
So they would give me, like,
707
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,160
little jobs because I function
really well.
708
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Like, if somebody gives me a
job, I'm like, yes, I'm in,
709
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,080
like, I'll do this job.
And then they asked me to give,
710
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,160
like, the talks in church.
But it was funny because my
711
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,920
sense of dress hadn't caught up
with my new religious awakening.
712
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,960
And so I would wear like, I was
a big fan of 70s clothes, so I
713
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,280
wore hot pants, so.
I would like to see you in hot.
714
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,800
Pants.
Yeah, I've got some pictures.
715
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,520
So I'd wear like tights with
like hot pants over the top,
716
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,680
like glittery ones and
everything, or very short, like
717
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,760
tight dresses.
And so that is actually when I
718
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,920
got my first awareness of like
body shaming or slut shaming.
719
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,400
And I was told that I was
distracting the bishopric when I
720
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,520
gave my talk because my skirt
was too short.
721
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,520
OK, I'm sorry.
And how old were you exactly?
722
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,320
17.
OK, that is really messed up.
723
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,240
I don't care what you were
wearing or if you were wearing
724
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,640
anything at all.
These grown men should not have.
725
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Yeah, I had those thoughts and
feelings.
726
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,640
And if they did, they should
keep them very solidly to
727
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,680
themselves.
That's completely inappropriate.
728
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,280
Yeah, but it was like, you know,
these group of men have been
729
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,160
saying you need to stop dressing
the way you are dressing.
730
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,720
And, you know, I am tall.
I'm like 5 foot 10, but I've
731
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,880
been 5 foot 10 from I was like
11.
732
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,680
And so I was sort of like this
younger person, I don't know,
733
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,840
17's, not like 17 night.
Like I didn't have the awareness
734
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:05,200
of like beauty standards really,
or, you know, my legs or which
735
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,000
were apparently very
distracting.
736
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,280
I I just was wearing a dress.
Well, they're long and beautiful
737
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,000
legs, but regardless, I maintain
that middle-aged men should not
738
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,120
have been looking at you like
that.
739
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,560
Registering that that that my
legs were great.
740
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,200
So it was kind of weird because
it was like the the awakening
741
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:30,520
coming back, but also like shame
level 500, you know, was was
742
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,560
starting to happen.
Then I went to university on
743
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,520
even, I actually shared this
with my kids recently.
744
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,200
Some of the books that we had to
read, I was like, I, I feel so
745
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,040
guilty.
Like they're swearing and
746
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,520
talking about sex in these
books.
747
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,480
Like, should I make a stand?
And maybe I could bear my
748
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,360
testimony about it like kind of
a thing.
749
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,000
But like, oh.
You precious thing.
750
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,400
Yeah, so, but I read them and,
you know, I I wasn't very vocal,
751
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,120
like I never was like a
testimony bearer because it I
752
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,400
just.
Like on some level I wasn't
753
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,920
feeling it, you know?
It's kind of cringy, yeah, to do
754
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,240
that in, you know, any situation
other than surrounded by
755
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,360
Mormons.
Yeah, and I, I didn't even do it
756
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,720
surrounded by Mormons.
Yeah, it's kind of cringy there
757
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,200
too.
I'm the same.
758
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,480
Yeah, I didn't do that very
often and I'm only one coerced.
759
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,200
Yes, or prompted or instructed
to do so.
760
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:31,800
So and all all the while that's
all going on, my oldest sister
761
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,440
emigrates to Salt Lake City.
Wow.
762
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,480
Yeah.
So.
763
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,160
She was the pioneer.
She was the.
764
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,560
Literal Pioneer Blazer.
Yes, she got a green card on the
765
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,160
green card lottery.
Wow.
766
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,640
Which is a lucky a legit program
by the way, in case somebody's
767
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,440
like what yes, and she was
documented people Cam dine.
768
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:57,760
So she got a green card on that
came to America Salt Lake City.
769
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,720
So that became my destination
for my college summers to come
770
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:07,000
to America for the first time.
Wow, and were your sisters still
771
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,480
Mormon at the time or are they
still?
772
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,440
Nobody is.
Nobody is.
773
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,240
Nobody is anymore, but at that
time.
774
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,040
Yes, they were very OK.
And the only people we knew in
775
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,840
all of America was tax
missionaries from Salt Lake
776
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,040
City.
Yeah, that makes sense.
777
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,000
So this cute, little, lovely
missionary couple, senior
778
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,040
couples, so like old people that
go on a mission after they're
779
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,240
retired, had come to Ireland and
they took her in.
780
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,000
She lived in their basement for
six months till she find a job
781
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,600
and a roommate.
And they were very kind,
782
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,280
wonderful, wonderful people.
And so I was very close to my
783
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,880
sister.
And so I sort of come to Salt
784
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,200
Lake City for the summer and the
second time I came, I got AJ1
785
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,760
visa and which allows like
college students to come work
786
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,520
for a summer in America and see
us foreigners do things the
787
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,040
right way, despite what the
media will tell you so.
788
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,480
Be careful, Claire, we don't
want you shot in the street.
789
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,880
Sorry, we're not going to go
there.
790
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,720
Yes, for now, but the salty hose
will be clear where we stand if
791
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:15,160
asked.
So there is that.
792
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,680
I'll, I'll get a little a little
spicy.
793
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,840
Not even salty when it comes to
talking, talking about my my we
794
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,080
immigration story.
So yeah, I came and I worked at
795
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,680
ZZ MI.
That's right.
796
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,080
I remember, yes, With your
skirts, that we're still too
797
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,080
short somehow.
Oh, yeah, We talked about that.
798
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,080
We talked about that, Yeah.
I have always been a whore, what
799
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,560
can I say?
You've always been a hoe.
800
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,240
Now you're a salty hoe.
I have just yes, I'm just
801
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:43,240
leaning into my true identity
that was gifted to me by the
802
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:47,400
Mormon church actually so
because I got shamed for my legs
803
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,240
from quite a young age,
apparently.
804
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:52,520
How dare you have a body.
I I just I'm so sorry like I'm
805
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,360
just so sorry for for OK, so you
came to Utah for the summers.
806
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,760
You had AJ1 visa, had AJ1 visa,
We're.
807
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Working here.
Working here and the church was
808
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,720
really fun here.
Compared to Ireland, you're
809
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,440
like, what the hell?
Yeah, so.
810
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,280
It made it more fun.
Like young single adults?
811
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,360
OK, so like more people in your
age group.
812
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:12,360
That's fun.
OK.
813
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,360
There was like 5 boys in
Ireland.
814
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It was small, right?
815
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,640
Yeah.
There weren't many people.
816
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,600
No, yeah, very small.
So it was like, Oh my God, like
817
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,960
and they did activities and
like.
818
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:25,600
Fun.
Dances.
819
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,600
Dances like going to D.
'S like oh I remember D's.
820
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,560
So I think I fell in love with
America.
821
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,920
It makes sense.
I thought it was Mormons also.
822
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,160
No car bombing or I assume,
people spitting on you.
823
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,280
Peaceful.
Yeah.
824
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,160
Peaceful.
So I mean, love that.
825
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,720
It's a little different now, but
back in the 90s, it was.
826
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,480
Yeah, a very different place.
It was, you know, and it was
827
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,200
like, what you saw on the TV.
Yeah.
828
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,440
So I think in my head, there was
sort of some confusion there,
829
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,600
you know.
So I met a Mormon boy.
830
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,600
We How old were you?
I was. 20.
831
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,480
Oh wow.
That's right.
832
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,320
So young, the age of my youngest
child.
833
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,840
No.
And yeah, we, they had this
834
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,720
going home party for me.
And he sang songs to me with his
835
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,040
friend in this like barbershop
quartet style.
836
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:15,440
Wow.
Yes.
837
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,240
And yeah.
And then he was singing a song
838
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:23,160
and there was like a speaking
part in it.
839
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,400
And he announced everybody that
I was going to be his wife.
840
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,840
Yes.
And we we had talked about it,
841
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,240
but I didn't know he was going
to do that that night.
842
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,160
So you were dating already?
We were dating.
843
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,880
OK, yes, and, and we actually
even had like a little ring.
844
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,840
Like a promise ring or an
engagement ring?
845
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,240
Well, it was, you know, a whole
other episode.
846
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,680
I, I didn't at that time feel
deserving of a very expensive
847
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,040
diamond ring because I had
received the message through
848
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,760
dating that they're so expensive
and, you know, I didn't want to
849
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,160
be a bother.
So it was this Pretty Little
850
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,120
amber ring from a, an antique
store, but it was beautiful.
851
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,400
And my daughter wears at night
like it's, you know, it's, it's,
852
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,920
but it was a sort of minimizing.
Yes, you were making yourself
853
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,800
yes, whereas in fact you deserve
the world.
854
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,240
I was like an $80 ring is great.
I love it.
855
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,120
So.
So yeah.
856
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,560
You know, my ring was very cheap
as well, but part of that was
857
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,680
because I didn't want to wear a
blood diamond.
858
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,920
That is actually exactly the
same as myself when he bought me
859
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,920
a diamond and that ring went
away for that very very reason.
860
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,880
So I like that We are ethically
aligned my friend.
861
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:38,680
Yeah, in some ways, I mean, it's
hard in this world to make
862
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,360
purely ethical decisions because
everything is contaminated.
863
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,720
But something is as clear as
that yes, seem like.
864
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,600
It's a no brainer.
Yeah, exactly.
865
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,960
Keep going.
Yeah, so.
866
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,920
So he said that, he announced.
He announced to all our Mormon
867
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,640
friends, you would be.
His wife and you had been dating
868
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,800
for a summer.
Less than a summer.
869
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,800
A summer a summer, So a couple a
few months.
870
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,400
Terrible idea.
Really.
871
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:08,400
I mean it seems so romantical
and also does.
872
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,000
It, I mean, it is kind of the
Mormon way especially, yes, back
873
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,040
then, yeah.
Because if you can't have sex
874
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,080
before marriage, that does tend
to result in short engagements.
875
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,360
Because.
You weirdly want to have sex.
876
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,280
Hormones are a hell of a drug.
What?
877
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,480
What?
What a terrible thing to want.
878
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,840
Like, Oh yeah.
Right, but you can't indulge
879
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,360
because that is next to murder.
So you have to get married
880
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,600
first.
And then they'll stop you
881
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,680
getting married in the temples.
Then all your friends and family
882
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,480
will know.
So lean and pure all the way.
883
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,640
So I went back to Ireland to go
back to school and he was here.
884
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,960
We wrote long romantic letters.
And.
885
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,560
You know, I sound so old.
It was not like now there was no
886
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,200
phone calls because it was
horrifically cost prohibitive.
887
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,640
Yes.
So we had probably one a month.
888
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,840
My parents would get very upset
about our phone bill.
889
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Sometimes I would run to the pay
phone, like the phone boxes and
890
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,720
coins and yes like about £10 or
$10.10.
891
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,160
Pounds.
Just to be like, hello, I love
892
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:12,480
you.
Wow.
893
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,280
Very romantical.
And yeah, so then the following
894
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,960
April, I flew to Salt Lake City
and we got married.
895
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,720
Wow, that's a whirlwind.
Yeah, he did come in February to
896
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:29,040
Ireland for a visit, so to meet
the family and all that.
897
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,760
So the wedding was all planned,
it was great, blah blah blah.
898
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,400
Came to America, got married
because it was the most
899
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,560
efficient way visa wise.
That makes sense because.
900
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:44,160
He was coming back to Ireland,
so gosh, that's a whole other
901
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,400
episode.
So we did that.
902
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,560
He came back to Ireland and then
we were like Mormon celebrities.
903
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,760
Oh, I bet.
I had a husband from Salt Lake
904
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:53,520
City.
Yes.
905
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,040
Yeah.
So there was that.
906
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,440
I'm just going to do the Cliff
Notes version, and obviously
907
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,880
we're going to revisit stuff in
future episodes for both of us
908
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,400
in terms of the stories.
So we got married, came back,
909
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,320
Salt Lake City, Mormon
celebrity.
910
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,000
He was the Bishop by the time he
was 26 years old.
911
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,120
Oh, that's so young.
So young.
912
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,120
So by that time we had two
children.
913
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:26,680
He was the Bishop and we had
just boughten, boughten,
914
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,840
boughten well.
Now you sound like a Utah you
915
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,320
bought in a house.
I bought in a house we'd
916
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:39,560
actually bought in our second
house because you know that we
917
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,640
we had some good opportunities,
which I like to remind my
918
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,160
children's father of when he
said we had a hard life starting
919
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,560
out.
We actually did not.
920
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,240
We were buying our second house
by I was 25, he was 26.
921
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,640
It was beautiful neighborhood,
but it was very rundown.
922
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:57,040
It was.
Where was the neighborhood?
923
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,480
Just outside of Belfast, OK,
it's a little time called
924
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,880
Jordan's time.
It has a university, so it's
925
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,080
just, it's like a little village
really.
926
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,360
It was a farming community
that's a little bigger.
927
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,200
It's growing up around the
university.
928
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,720
We have a beach, a beautiful
place to raise children.
929
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,680
By this time, peace, we had the
ceasefire.
930
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,760
Things were different.
And yeah, I walked my children
931
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,240
to elementary school every day
looking at the fishing boats on
932
00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:29,640
the shore.
I mean, it was it was very
933
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,560
beautiful and a lovely place to
live.
934
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,280
Really.
So he was the Bishop.
935
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,640
I was the Bishop's wife then.
Just non consensually.
936
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:46,240
So had this unofficial calling
and then I get accepted into my
937
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:47,240
PhD program.
Yay.
938
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,520
So I'm doing my PHDI have two
children, my husband's the
939
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,120
Bishop, he's in school and of
course that takes priority.
940
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,680
So it's like I have a dirty
little secret.
941
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,480
It's like I'm going off to be a
stripper at night.
942
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,000
So he comes.
Stripping or PhD terminal
943
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,680
degree, it's pretty much the
same either way.
944
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,880
Yeah, so he would come home from
his bishops meeting and then I
945
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:15,240
was thereby permitted to leave
for my studies at 9:00 PM after
946
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,280
raising two children all day and
yes, sounds exhausting.
947
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,920
Yes, wow.
I also had some terrible part
948
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,720
time jobs to make ends meet
because he was in school, like
949
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:26,280
including.
Being a church janitor.
950
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:27,480
I was the.
Church janitor.
951
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,400
I know you would have made more
money as a stripper.
952
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,840
Probably we should have done
that instead of our pH DS.
953
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,600
I know, right?
We probably, yeah, be in a
954
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,400
different spot for sure.
Yeah.
955
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,080
Well, yeah, probably in a lot of
ways.
956
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,080
Yeah, that's.
That would have been an
957
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,960
interesting like, you know, that
sliding doors movie like.
958
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,800
Well, yeah, I love that movie,
actually.
959
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,600
It's a good.
Movie.
960
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,760
Yeah, there's Stripper.
Life and.
961
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,480
PhD life?
Yes.
962
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,560
Well, certainly.
No shade on our stripper
963
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:53,160
friends.
No.
964
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,920
Our sex workers, Absolutely.
I, you know, I am sorry for the
965
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,120
way that you are sometimes
treated.
966
00:50:58,280 --> 00:50:59,560
Absolutely.
Yeah.
967
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:01,760
Anyway, OK, so you're doing your
PhD at night.
968
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,000
Doing all that.
And his assignments right where
969
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,160
you're typing his.
Still typing his assignments
970
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,560
while nursing with one child on
a boob.
971
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,640
Yeah, so.
So yeah, just working away, just
972
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,680
exhausted.
I, I think I've had a
973
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,080
dysregulated nervous system from
probably approximately then.
974
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,640
And yeah.
Since your first child was born,
975
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,360
I.
Would imagine.
976
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,160
I mean, because it's, it's just
chaos.
977
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,840
It's it's like, and your job is
to support the Bishop and all
978
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,120
that stuff.
So Fast forward through all
979
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,800
those years, another child PhD
debacle situation, all this
980
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,200
stuff, emigrate to America,
various reasons, the dollars in
981
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,760
the toilet, We get 2 1/2 to
every one of ours from Ireland.
982
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,400
We make a 500% profit on this
house that we sold.
983
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,280
So like we had this very dreamy,
privileged immigration
984
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,480
situation.
Kids were all American citizens
985
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,560
born abroad, so they had their
stuff.
986
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,720
I just had to get mine.
We come here, he walks right
987
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:05,680
into this great job at an
architecture firm.
988
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,680
We buy a house with cash.
Amazing.
989
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:13,960
I was 33 years old, mortgage
free, my little Mcmansion in
990
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,520
suburban Utah, Davis County.
Davis County, all right?
991
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,760
Yeah, yeah.
So we're there and I'm like, Oh
992
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,920
my God, we're going to be so
supported by the ward.
993
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,920
I'm going to have all these
friends and it's going to be
994
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,240
amazing and blah blah blah.
I feel like you're foreshadowing
995
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:33,240
right now, Claire.
OK, so did you have a lot of
996
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:35,480
friends?
That would be a hard nose.
997
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:41,560
So the time which is relevant is
2007 and we we moved to Leyton.
998
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,600
I have no concept of America,
American politics other than
999
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,600
America's just a place everybody
wants to live and it's amazing.
1000
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,480
So go to the ward.
Some lovely people in the ward,
1001
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,800
people that I still know and
love dearly, but they're just it
1002
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,080
didn't feel the same.
You know, I didn't I didn't feel
1003
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:07,200
like I'd good mom friends, you
know, like I had an Ireland and
1004
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,000
I actually entered quite a
depressive episode.
1005
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,160
I've been, you know, very lucky
in terms of mental health and
1006
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,680
I've, you know, no postpartum
things or anything, but I, I for
1007
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,320
the first time took
antidepressants because I felt
1008
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,360
so anchor less.
And I was in this church that
1009
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,040
was supposed to be the same, but
wasn't the same.
1010
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,520
And it just was just sort of a
giant jumble.
1011
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,720
And weirdly, like, you think you
moved to Salt Lake City and
1012
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:38,640
you're going to be so solidified
in your faith, like you're in
1013
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,840
the Mormon capital.
And and it actually went the
1014
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,600
other way for me.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
1015
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:49,480
It was the start of the end and
we would have these like lessons
1016
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,760
and Relief Society about how to
prepare for a nuclear attack
1017
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,880
and.
Like right, like all the prepper
1018
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:57,520
stuff.
Oh.
1019
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,320
My God.
And there's like this cute old
1020
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,760
lady and she's in going, so get
towels and soak them and like
1021
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,800
put them around the perimeter of
your home.
1022
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,200
And I'm just like, dear God.
Like what are we doing here?
1023
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,320
What?
And then like I'm like, oh, I
1024
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,440
have anxiety now.
I like, you know, it was just
1025
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,080
like, I what?
I what it is this organization,
1026
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,400
I don't get it.
So there's that.
1027
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,560
I'll, I'll, I'll just briefly
describe sort of the main points
1028
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,880
of, of what contributed to the
exit.
1029
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:34,160
So it's 2000 and seven 2008
election who's up for president?
1030
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,880
And I just thought who's this
hot guy?
1031
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,560
And people in Ireland loved
Barack Obama, right?
1032
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,720
Because he's Irish, so.
Or we claim him at least.
1033
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,720
Yeah, So.
I thought it was from Kenya.
1034
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,440
Hold on.
And Ireland.
1035
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:55,000
So he's Irish Yeah, well, I
mean, it's a fairpoint, but his
1036
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,760
mother's hearts we Right.
We actually have a Barack Obama
1037
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,120
gas station.
Oh, how fun in Ireland.
1038
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,240
I would like to visit that.
Yeah, so like when we.
1039
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,040
When we take our trip to
Ireland.
1040
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,960
Claire, yes, I will take you on
a wee tour.
1041
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,240
I love it.
So I put a sign in my yard
1042
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,400
because I was like, I what?
People can openly share their
1043
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,320
political affiliations and not
die.
1044
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,400
I mean, clearly things are very
different right now, but this
1045
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,680
was the early 2000s, right?
That's right.
1046
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,640
So I come from a place where my
mom wanted to run for public
1047
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,640
office and we were like, no,
we're going to get our windows
1048
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:29,920
broken.
Like you're going to get shot.
1049
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,200
Like you can't do it.
So I felt, I was like, you felt
1050
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,640
free, the land of the free.
Yeah.
1051
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,960
And I was like, I'm going to put
because I like this guy.
1052
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:41,360
And if you had have said is he a
Democrat or Republican, I would
1053
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:47,440
have been like a what?
I yeah, what I So yeah, I did
1054
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,480
that and the letters started
letters.
1055
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,360
Letters.
Anonymous letters, Yes.
1056
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,680
Oh, no.
In the mail with a stamp.
1057
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,320
Oh, my Lord, that is terrible.
Yeah.
1058
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:06,240
And in the letters it said.
This line always stuck out to
1059
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:09,680
me.
Think about putting a Chicago
1060
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,960
gangster in capital letters.
R White House.
1061
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,440
So wow.
Emphasizing you are an outsider,
1062
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,120
like go back to your socialist
land.
1063
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,600
That was also mentioned about me
being a European socialist at
1064
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:26,920
1.20.
No.
1065
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,320
And I was just so confused and
scared because of course that my
1066
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,960
name and address was like, you
know how you'd see the scary
1067
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,240
movies and they cut things like
newspapers and like I'd like.
1068
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:41,000
They didn't do that, but they
printed it and stuck it on so
1069
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:42,520
you can identify their
handwriting.
1070
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:49,040
So it was like scary, I scary.
I didn't feel very safe and I, I
1071
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,760
actually called our local Police
Department and they said, you
1072
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,160
know, you're actually not the
first person to call like this
1073
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,040
and there's nothing we can do
unless they threaten your life
1074
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,600
or your property.
How many letters did you get?
1075
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,880
Three in total.
Do you think they were all from
1076
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,080
the same person?
Yes, and I believe that they
1077
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,040
were a member of the State
Council.
1078
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,440
Oh, I'm pretty sure I knew who
it was.
1079
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:16,640
Wow, yeah.
So there was that, and then came
1080
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,200
Prop 8.
Prop 8.
1081
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:23,200
I remember that well.
So Prop 8 was the reason.
1082
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:28,240
And I remember vividly one night
everybody was in bed, all the
1083
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,800
kids were asleep, my husband was
asleep, and I snuck off like I
1084
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:33,400
was going to do a dirty bad
thing.
1085
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,880
And I watched a documentary
about Prop 8 and my world
1086
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,680
exploded.
And just for all our listeners
1087
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,680
that might not remember Prop 8,
I think I mentioned it as well.
1088
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,800
That was also, I was well out by
then, but that was the first
1089
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,640
time I sent in my resignation,
my formal resignation to the
1090
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,760
church.
So that was the constitutional
1091
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,080
proposition in California
banning gay marriage, right?
1092
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,400
Yep.
And tell us the connection to
1093
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,360
the Mormon Church.
Remind us of that.
1094
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,720
Well, I was hearing in the ward
that we were encouraged to
1095
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,280
donate money to block gay
marriage.
1096
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:13,160
I heard that from people that
had children in California, that
1097
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,480
they were trying to get, you
know, specific demographics of
1098
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,360
people to lead the charge, so to
speak, to battle this on behalf
1099
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,640
of God and the universe on
earth.
1100
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,760
You know, And I was just like,
what?
1101
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:33,520
Like, again, what came up for me
when I find out about black men
1102
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,800
in the priesthood, that same
feeling came back of just this
1103
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,360
is like morally repugnant.
It's not good.
1104
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,040
I don't like it.
Everything in my body is telling
1105
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:48,600
me this is wrong, wrong, wrong.
And at that point, because of
1106
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,320
just the way the documentary
went, I just felt so betrayed by
1107
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,480
the Mormon church, by the
leadership.
1108
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,240
I just felt like I've been, it
was just all a lie and, you
1109
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,680
know, it just unraveled.
And then you find out more
1110
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,120
things and you find out more
things and you're just like.
1111
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,760
You go down the rabbit hole.
I can't like.
1112
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,360
And it never ends.
That and yeah, I, I just, I
1113
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:15,640
couldn't do what my mom told me
to do when I came to her as a
1114
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,920
teenager.
You know there was no box big
1115
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,120
enough to hold that.
The shelf was broken.
1116
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:22,600
The shelf was broken.
Fix it.
1117
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,480
And I'm also in now this country
that has this race element that
1118
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,400
I'd never before experienced.
So I'm like, OK, like this box
1119
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,840
cannot is there's not a size of
a box for that.
1120
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,680
And that was it.
Did it bring back those feelings
1121
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,120
you had from when you were a
teenager about the blacks and
1122
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,600
the priesthood in 1978?
OK, so that sort of came rushing
1123
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,000
back as well.
Yep.
1124
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,120
And so here I was.
I'm like Oh my goodness, I have
1125
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,120
to tell my ex Bishop husband
that I don't want to go to this
1126
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,000
church anymore.
And you know, my kids at
1127
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,120
different stages, we're very
into it.
1128
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,640
My kids are hilarious.
Like one of them used to like
1129
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,280
change the time and the clock to
try to make us miss church and
1130
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,720
stuff.
So there there was.
1131
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:09,040
This I think I can guess which
one.
1132
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,800
You would be right and her
beautiful.
1133
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,680
We sold.
And so we also, my children
1134
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,280
reminded me of this the other
day because I was telling them
1135
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,520
this was our episode.
And they said, you have to
1136
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:27,880
mention that like Starbucks Chai
fraps were was the gateway drug
1137
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,840
like to getting outside of the
church.
1138
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,200
And they remembered this
incident then where we've gone
1139
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,160
to the drive through, which by
the way, I would never ever
1140
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,560
purchase a Starbucks in the
current climate.
1141
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:42,280
That's fair, but these were
different times.
1142
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:43,480
Different times.
Not judging.
1143
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,960
Yes.
So we went through the drive
1144
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,080
through and we had eye contact
with an older couple in the ward
1145
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:53,960
who were sitting outside having
a cup of coffee and we had Chai
1146
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:59,520
fraps which we were kind of felt
guilty but in an exciting way
1147
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,920
about so.
Those don't have coffee in them
1148
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,080
though, do they?
Or do they?
1149
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,000
No, but it was tea.
Black tea.
1150
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,080
Oh, that's right, the tea.
You can't do the tea either.
1151
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:14,640
So yeah.
And weirdly, my husband at the
1152
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,840
time was kind of on board.
Too.
1153
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,240
Oh, interesting.
So you had this conversation
1154
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,880
with him and it it sounds like
it went.
1155
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,120
Pretty well, yeah.
And it wasn't even like a
1156
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,600
decisive, I have sit down and
have something to tell you.
1157
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,320
I sort of started putting little
things right there.
1158
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,680
Okay, did you know about this?
Tested the waters a little bit,
1159
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:34,920
did you?
Know about that.
1160
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:40,400
And so it just sort of was this
slow evolution, and then we
1161
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,160
actually left the neighborhood
and moved to Salt Lake, which
1162
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,440
made things hell of a lot.
Easier, I bet you didn't get any
1163
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,440
anonymous letters for putting an
Obama sign in your yard there.
1164
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,240
Did not get any anonymous
letters and they they find us
1165
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,640
because they're good at that.
But like 2 house moves later, I
1166
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:04,160
think the trail was broken.
So yeah, my kids never had a
1167
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,120
desire to go back.
In fact, the complete opposite.
1168
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,040
I've been divorced for 10 years
now.
1169
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,760
I but the my ex-husband is still
8.
1170
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:18,280
Everybody is 8.
So it yeah, it was very
1171
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,920
interesting.
I moved to Mormon headquarters
1172
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,560
and left the church.
Yep.
1173
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,360
I can relate.
I can too remember.
1174
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,880
Yeah, because the blindfold
comes off, you know.
1175
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,840
And you just see it close up,
right?
1176
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,880
And there's no hiding it
anymore, right?
1177
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,280
That's not like sort of the
excuses and the special pleading
1178
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,160
and then, oh, that's not really
what the church teaches.
1179
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,800
When you come to the epicenter
and you realize, oh, not only is
1180
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,800
that what they teach, but
they're all in on it.
1181
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:53,320
Yeah, and I mean even just being
from another country in Devas
1182
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,120
kind tea was enough to have you
not be accepted even though you
1183
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,240
were within the tribe, so to
speak.
1184
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:01,800
You know, really interesting to
me.
1185
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,560
I actually would have thought
the opposite.
1186
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,160
But I mean, given that you are,
you know, white and from
1187
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,680
Ireland, I imagine it would be
quite different if you'd been
1188
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,320
like, you know, brown and from
Chile or something like, yeah,
1189
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:13,760
right.
But I would have thought they
1190
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,760
would have liked that and found
it like kind of cute and exotic
1191
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:19,920
but in a non threatening way.
But it sounds like that wasn't
1192
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:21,520
the case.
Well, you raise a good point,
1193
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:25,840
right, because there's there is
privilege of being a white
1194
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,520
European immigrant where half
people's grannies come from,
1195
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:31,200
right?
And Oh my God, you're from
1196
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:32,080
Ireland.
You know I.
1197
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:33,480
Love their Irish ancestry.
Yeah.
1198
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,200
But it wasn't.
It wasn't so much that way.
1199
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:41,240
You received those platitudes
for sure, but then it's like,
1200
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:45,760
but ultimately you're different.
And my poor little baby child
1201
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,200
who was in fifth grade, that's
such a vulnerable age.
1202
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:53,960
And she went to school one day
and somebody had treats for the
1203
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,200
birthday, you know, like you do,
you bring in the treats.
1204
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,760
She was not like to have any of
the treats.
1205
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,640
And the girl came up and she
said, honey, that might be how
1206
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,040
you do things in Ireland, but
that's not how we do it here.
1207
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,480
About something that she had
done in her school work or
1208
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,200
something, you know.
And so there there was a lot of
1209
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,040
that.
So even your kids were getting
1210
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,200
other.
Yes, yeah, that's terrible.
1211
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,960
And so, you know, it's not to go
like, wow, wow per us, but
1212
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,800
because, you know, I know that
people go through a lot worse.
1213
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:24,520
Oh, that's not what I'm trying
to say.
1214
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,320
I just thought, you know, people
would have found, like you said,
1215
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,000
that kind of cute and fun and
they would have glommed onto
1216
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,040
you, Yeah, instead of rejecting
you.
1217
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,600
But.
Yeah, I mean mostly what I heard
1218
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:42,800
is I got called a a European
socialist a lot and it was just
1219
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,080
so confusing and bizarre to me
honestly.
1220
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,880
Like it just, it just was so
bizarre.
1221
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,600
And I think seeing it on an
organizational level and the way
1222
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:56,480
that sort of the church
infiltrates state and government
1223
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:02,320
and I didn't any longer want to
be the group that was the source
1224
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,480
of harm to other people.
And I think that's what tipped
1225
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,560
me out.
And then I started to learn
1226
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:13,040
about doctrine stuff and the
other questionable right things
1227
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,760
and finding out to bite.
Oh, Joseph Smith did polygamy
1228
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:17,040
too.
What I and?
1229
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,600
You know, with 14 year olds.
Yes, and you know, so it's like
1230
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,560
it just sort of unravels in your
there's just this like a point
1231
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,680
where you can't you like I
couldn't, I couldn't go back in
1232
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:29,040
good conscience.
I mean, it sounds like even Prop
1233
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,720
8IN and of itself was a bright
line for you.
1234
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,840
Yeah.
And I, I really admire that
1235
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,640
about you.
You have a very strong sense of
1236
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,000
what's right and what's wrong
and what is harmful to people.
1237
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,280
And I just, I'm in awe of you
all the time.
1238
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:44,960
I love you.
Thank you.
1239
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,440
I just, I love people I know,
like I genuinely just love
1240
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,480
people.
I'm fascinated by their stories.
1241
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:54,800
I love them.
I think even though there's a
1242
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,200
lot of really shitty humans
right now, we haven't really
1243
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,680
swore a lot today.
I feel like I just have to say
1244
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,040
like shit or fuck or something
just to.
1245
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,880
Bounce.
Watch out the next episode.
1246
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,760
We're going to be on a rebound.
This this was the more serious
1247
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,880
issue.
But yeah, like, I just, I I
1248
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:13,960
don't want to be part of that
group.
1249
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,760
That would make people feel
shitty just because of their
1250
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,520
identity or who they love.
I just, yeah, I don't get it.
1251
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,560
I just don't.
It just, it's just, yeah.
1252
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:26,680
You're a good soul.
You're one of the best people I
1253
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,360
know.
Thank you.
1254
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,640
I'm all like emotional now.
I'm like.
1255
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,760
No.
But I just, I just, I don't
1256
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,760
know, I like people and I just,
there was just too much harm.
1257
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,080
I could not get past the harm.
And that's.
1258
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:42,520
So you were just took?
Me out.
1259
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,920
I was done.
And then I saw all the other
1260
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,400
stuff that I honestly hadn't
really concerned myself much
1261
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,000
with.
Like I say, my experience, the
1262
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,640
Mormon church, there wasn't a
lot of talk about the big man
1263
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,760
upstairs or God.
Sorry.
1264
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,440
It's like a very Irish way of
referring to deity.
1265
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:01,640
I don't mean it in a
disrespectful way, a very loving
1266
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,640
way.
I'm I am an agnostic right now,
1267
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,840
so you know, but I understand
why people could believe and
1268
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,560
want to believe and it feel very
nice and I respect that,
1269
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:14,640
whatever the religion.
But yeah, I just, it was so
1270
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:19,360
incongruent for me that if this
God person really did live, I,
1271
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,840
he, he was like kind of mean.
And yeah, I didn't like, even
1272
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,920
though I feel like there's a
bolt of lightning will strike me
1273
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:28,800
for saying that.
And I'm not saying God is mean.
1274
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:32,160
I'm saying the version of God I
was given was mean.
1275
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:36,200
And so if they do exist, not to
get into theological discussion
1276
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:43,240
here, they would be like my dad
who's nice and loves me and
1277
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,160
wants to protect me and.
And wouldn't break up families
1278
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:49,240
that already existed.
No, yeah.
1279
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:50,960
And he loves my siblings just
the same.
1280
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:52,560
And the community.
And yeah.
1281
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,920
So that's, that's my exit story.
Wow.
1282
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,840
That's an amazing story.
I think that is pretty unique as
1283
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,240
ex Mormons go.
I feel like mine is more
1284
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,480
run-of-the-mill.
But you know, being from Ireland
1285
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,560
and growing up in that situation
and then coming to America,
1286
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,840
like, wow, that was that was a
ride.
1287
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:15,880
And I knew some of that, but not
all of it.
1288
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:20,359
That was really, really
interesting to listen to and I'm
1289
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:24,279
so glad you shared it with us.
Thank you I I'm I'm having lots
1290
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:27,960
of feelings.
Like, good for sharing, little
1291
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:32,080
melancholy, even.
Some of the shame actually still
1292
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:33,600
does come back.
I bet.
1293
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,160
You know, that was a little over
a decade ago and.
1294
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:38,560
Yeah.
I mean, that's pretty strongly
1295
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,760
ingrained.
So of course it makes sense you
1296
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,960
would still have some of that.
And I do, and I know that even
1297
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,680
if some Mormon people that still
know me from home will have
1298
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:49,640
apoplexy when they hear me say
this.
1299
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,279
But you know, I say with
confidence now that I am
1300
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,000
grateful to to no longer be a
member of the church.
1301
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,920
And again, that's no shade.
I, I walked this morning with a
1302
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:01,520
a dear friend that's committed
member.
1303
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,600
And I love her and respect her.
She loves and respects me.
1304
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:08,279
Cool, because I think often when
you leave, you're slated as this
1305
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:10,359
bad person that wants to talk
shit on the church.
1306
01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:13,240
And but I just, it's, it's not
for me.
1307
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:18,840
And I'm, I'm relieved and I am
so grateful that my, my kids
1308
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,359
aren't in the church.
I'm so grateful and I'm so sorry
1309
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:25,720
to them for the more negative
programming.
1310
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,520
I, I put in their head.
We actually do have a picture on
1311
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,640
our fridge right now for fun
where it's my oldest to holding
1312
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,479
a contract that says I will
never swear, I will never drink,
1313
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,800
I will never take drugs.
And and so we, we put it up
1314
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,200
there to, to be funny, not to
minimize any of their religious
1315
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,920
traumas that they have, but we
do have a wee giggle over that
1316
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:50,520
one.
But I'm just so glad they have
1317
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:56,120
the freedom to love who they
want to love, to experience life
1318
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,120
in all the beautiful, rich,
incredible ways that you're led
1319
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:02,800
to believe are evil and
terrible.
1320
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:04,600
The world is not evil and
terrible.
1321
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,360
It is.
Well, it is, but it's also not
1322
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,760
in the way, not in the Mormon
way that you're told,
1323
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,680
unfortunately, because they
actually don't highlight the
1324
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,680
really evil parts.
They present them as good.
1325
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:24,080
So, you know, if anybody is in
that in between space, it's it's
1326
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,880
beautiful on the other side.
Yeah, it really is.
1327
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,880
Yep, it really is.
And I'm sure you feel like your
1328
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,480
relationship with your children
is much better than it would
1329
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:38,040
have been had you stayed.
Your kids are amazing little
1330
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,320
humans.
You've raised them wonderfully.
1331
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:42,560
Thank you.
So I think that, you know, if
1332
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,520
you have any guilt remaining,
like you kind of, it sounds like
1333
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,400
you kind of do.
Maybe that's something to try
1334
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:50,840
and release back into the
universe.
1335
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:51,880
I know it's hard.
Yeah.
1336
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:54,240
But maybe let it go.
Yeah, if I can.
1337
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,200
Yes, working on it.
Working on it.
1338
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,120
So.
We're all works in progress.
1339
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,720
We are indeed my friend, but
thank you for creating a space
1340
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,800
and the questions and and
letting me go on my tangents
1341
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,560
and.
Now, it was an honor to listen
1342
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:09,960
to your story.
Thank you so much.
1343
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,560
You're we, Jim.
All right, well, friends,
1344
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,200
listeners, if you have any
comments, please share them.
1345
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,520
We hope you enjoyed this.
Don't worry, we will be back to
1346
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:22,800
our salty salty next time.
We'll catch you then.
1347
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:24,200
Goodbye.
See you then.
1348
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:24,760
Bye.
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Welcome.
Welcome.
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It's the salty hose coming at
you from behind the Zion
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curtain.
This is Claire.
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Hi, this is Mel.
And we're so excited to be back
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with you to share the weird and
wonderful things of the real
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lives of ex Mormon ex wives.
So thank you for taking a minute
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to listen to us today.
Yeah, Thank you.
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We're excited to be here.
So this week we're going to
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delve into my story of how I
left Mormonism.
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You've already heard males so.
We're And if you haven't, go
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back and listen.
Yeah, that's your homework.
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It could be after this episode,
you know when you get to it.
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Or press pause, go back so you
can do the the chronology, but
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we're going to talk about that
today.
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But before we jump into that,
how was your week?
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Anything exciting?
Yeah, my week was pretty good I
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guess.
Hmm.
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I actually had a date last
night.
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Ohh.
Yeah.
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And who is this?
First date, Second date.
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This is a second date.
Ohh, I know.
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What a Unicorn.
I think there might be 1/3 date.
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Actually I think there will be
1/3 date.
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Ohh.
My goodness.
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Well, stay tuned.
Yeah, we'll hear more about the
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possible third date Saiga.
This is good news.
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It is good news. 1/3 DI, don't
even remember the last time I
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had 1/3 date.
Well, I don't want to jinx it.
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Because we've had two so far.
Well, they both.
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Went really well.
Yeah, great conversation.
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They both lasted quite a long
time, several hours.
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Oh my.
Goodness, we just couldn't stop
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talking to each other.
It was kind of lovely.
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Oh my goodness.
Right.
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OK.
Hope.
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Yeah.
Hope for the listeners.
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Hope.
There is hope.
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OK.
So we'll put a pin in that.
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We love a wee dash of hope.
Indeed.
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This is good.
How was your week?
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It was good.
I feel like I really like humans
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like adulted.
I love that this like I feel
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like I did stuff like
multifaceted stuff.
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I did try to flirt this week.
Yes, look at me, I did try to
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flirt.
I'm I'm currently not on apps
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looking, but I sort of
reconnected with a a person I
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haven't texted in over a year,
but that is it's whole other
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story too.
So we'll put a pen in that as
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well.
OK.
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Yeah, sounds like we need to dig
deeper.
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I there, there's definitely a
lot to that, but I mean, no
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meeting a person because God
forbid that you would ever
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actually do that.
But I mean, clearly that
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happens.
Well, it happened to me.
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It happened to you?
Crazy it happened to you.
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So I I also went to an
interesting party.
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I may actually be slightly
hungover this morning, although
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I do think there's a little
migraine starting or migraine,
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migraine, migraine, migraine.
See in Ireland they say migraine
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and but I it's all mixed up.
I don't, I don't like know
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what's from where anymore.
So a wee migraine Migraine.
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Slash hangover maybe?
Slash possible hangover.
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I don't know.
Yeah.
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I mean, you know, I'm not a big
drinker.
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I know I'm, I'm actually like
quite a lightweight, which isn't
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true to my Irish heritage,
which, you know, people always
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point out.
But I had three whole drinks
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last night.
Oh, my.
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And I feel like trashed wild
woman, a wild woman. 3 gins.
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They were beautiful gins, but
wonderful.
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Were you at home or were you out
somewhere?
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What was the situation?
So I went to a party with an
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interesting name.
So it's at Squatters, which is a
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great Salt Lake original honors.
I love squatters.
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Yep.
So for our people that are not
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from Salt Lake City Squatter's
Pub, it's great.
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Their own brews, really good
food.
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Yeah.
I saw it and at a great price
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point too.
And this is not an ad, by the
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way.
Yeah.
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They don't pay us squatters.
If you're listening, you should
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pay us you.
Totally should bring us to
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dinner, but that's yeah.
I had no plan to mention
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squatters, but it just came out.
There you go.
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But yeah, I walked in and she
said, you know, oh, how many for
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your table?
And I said, oh, I'm actually
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here for a private event.
So I was the deit of we are
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Shrenda.
I actually have living here.
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So I was her deit for the night
and she looked at me and she
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said infectious disease and I
was like no but and then I was
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like Oh yes, yes.
So that was the name of my event
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and hilarious.
I walked up the stairs and the
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wee board said infectious
diseases and I was like, maybe
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could they have called it a
different thing?
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I don't know.
So, but I guess nobody would
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crash it because they maybe
thought we were like a gathering
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of people with infectious
disease.
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You know, as a biologist, I I
love that name.
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Yeah, quite a lot.
It's it would be like a good
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punk band, like Infectious
diseases.
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Absolutely.
Yeah.
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So.
But it was actually, you know,
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doctors and great researchers
who study infectious disease.
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But it did look like a potential
gathering of people with
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infectious diseases.
So that just tickled me a little
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bit.
I was like, wow, this is like a
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a fun party to be at so.
That sounds really fun.
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It was good times.
It was good times.
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So yeah, I did two whole things
this week, flirted and went out
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of my house so.
I'm proud of you.
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Thank you, me too.
Well, should we dive in?
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Let's dive in, my friend.
OK, so Claire's story, we're
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going Mormon stories on you
again.
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Hat tip to Mr. John Dillon and
all the good work he's done.
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I will try to summon even a
fraction of his interviewing
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skills here.
All right, so Claire.
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I think you're better
personally.
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No shade to him, but.
Thank you.
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I have.
Some feelings there, but I
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you're, yeah.
He's got a lot of experience and
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I, I will admit, I've only
listened to a few episodes, to
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be honest.
But in our very first episode,
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our introductory episode, you
talked just a little bit about
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your Mormon background.
So we want to dive in a little
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bit more.
So you mentioned that your
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mother had converted to the
Mormon church, the Church of
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Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints.
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Yeah, before you were born,
right?
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Yes.
She was like 17, so she was
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really just a wee teenager.
Amazing.
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Yeah.
But then she kind of wasn't so
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active and then rekindled her
love affair with the Mormon
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church at some point.
So tell us about that.
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Yeah, So she stepped away for a
moment.
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She moved to London with my dad.
My dad does not believe in any
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organized religion and he, well,
that's too strong a word I was
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going to say, is contempt
equally across the board, but he
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really doesn't.
He just doesn't care for it.
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So he never had a phase of being
Norman.
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Did he ever go to church with
you?
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No, OK, he just was like cool
you do your thing that's great.
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But you know I'm not a believer.
In fact, you know, because I am
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the person of 500 story shooting
off of my brain from anyone
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sentence in my head.
But I think it's worth sharing
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when they were dating, the
missionaries were, you know,
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always trying to, oh, hey, you
know, get my dad to take the
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discussions, all that kind of
stuff.
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Worthy priesthood holder exactly
for this poor, fragile woman.
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There's nothing fragile about my
mother, but just that idea.
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And so my dad was a military guy
and he was a young guy in the
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military.
He was off in Germany, living on
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a base there for the British
Army.
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And, you know, they were trained
in different techniques,
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including being captured and,
you know, interrogated or
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brainwashing or coercion and
things like that.
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So he had some grounding.
Some background, one might say,
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in the techniques that were
being used.
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Is that where we're going?
Yes.
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And I'm not, I'm not like
casting shade here, you know,
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because if the church works for
you, great.
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But they were trying to, you
know, the different tactics that
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they're trained on, obviously.
And my dad, he's I love my dad.
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He's like my hero.
He's a very soft spoken, kind,
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gentle person.
And you know, he wouldn't be
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rude to people.
And he just said, I'm, you know,
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appreciate your company.
It's fun to hang out.
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He's like, but just so you know,
I'm very conversant in
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techniques of coercion,
brainwashing, etcetera.
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And he just said, lads, this is
not going to work on me.
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OK, love that he was just
upfront about.
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That he was just clear.
He wasn't rude.
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He wasn't like, you know, saying
derogatory things about the
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church.
He's just like, this is not for
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me.
I know what you're doing.
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I understand these are the
techniques.
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And again, not to suggest that
missionaries are going like one,
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I'm here to brainwash, but
they're, you know, it's like a
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marketing job or a selling job.
You're taught techniques.
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Yes.
So he was like, happy to hang
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out.
Please do not bring this up
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again.
So I don't know whatever they
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wrote in their little books that
they had just nobody ever asked
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00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,240
him ever, ever, ever, ever
again.
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00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,720
I can imagine.
Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, it's
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not aggressive, but it's very
direct and clear.
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I admire that.
Yeah, and he's just like, please
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stop.
I'm not converting.
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I love this woman.
It's cool if she goes.
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Let's move on.
Not for me.
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00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,600
So OK.
Yeah.
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00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,040
So then as you were growing up,
how did this work for you?
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So your mother was Mormon, Your
dad that wasn't.
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00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,160
Where were you in all this?
Well, I just hadn't even heard
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00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,400
of the Mormons.
So remembering again that I grew
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00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,920
up in a place of like sectarian
religious violence.
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00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,360
I mean, you could say religious
violence, that was a facet of
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00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,320
it.
So what really mattered where I
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00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,400
lived is if you were a
Protestant or if you were a
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00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,400
Catholic, right?
And in some cases it was a
200
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,800
matter of survival.
So my wee 7 year old Brianne
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00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,400
didn't go beyond that.
I just knew Protestants.
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00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,120
I just knew Catholics.
I knew that our family was a bit
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00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,480
warm because we weren't really
major churchgoers of any kind.
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00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,760
And sometimes my mom let us go
with the neighbors to Sunday
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00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,040
school at the Presbyterian
Church.
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00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,120
Sometimes we went to Mass.
Like wow, it just wasn't really
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00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,280
a thing.
And just to be clear for our
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00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,200
listeners at this time in
Belfast, when you say this is a
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00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,040
matter of survival, people
actually were losing their lives
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00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,040
in this conflict, right?
Yeah, based on if they were a
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00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,280
Protestant or a Catholic.
So, you know, it was all
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00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,040
interwoven into what school you
went to.
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00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,280
And even still in America, if
you meet somebody from, you
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00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,880
know, the north of Ireland,
you're like, what school did you
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00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,200
go to?
But like, it's a, it's a
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00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,760
question more than what school
did you go to.
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00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,280
It's like, let me ascertain your
identity using my 6th sense that
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00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,000
I developed, you know, and I
mean, you can tell by looking at
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00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,320
the the football shirt or soccer
jersey, as the Americans would
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00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,960
say, you can make a guess at
somebody's religion.
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00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,880
If you look at their jewelry,
even you can make a guess at
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00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:17,880
their religion.
So.
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00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,400
What about the type of whiskey
they drink?
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00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,400
You know, I I'll have to ask my
brother-in-law about that one.
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00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,120
Maybe so.
I don't know.
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00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,320
I would say probably, yeah.
If you're a Protestant, you
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00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,440
probably drink Bushmills.
Right.
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00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:31,920
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's
right, yeah.
229
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,760
Did you have any situations
where you're you felt like you
230
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,600
were in danger or you had a
close call?
231
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,920
Oh yeah, always.
I mean, I think always every,
232
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,560
well, every person.
Like if you asked anybody from
233
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:49,200
like, I'm not unique in that
sense, but I mean, absolutely in
234
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,760
terms of the religion aspect.
So the schools, if you went to
235
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,160
public school, you were
considered a Protestant, then
236
00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,400
they had Catholic schools.
Obviously you were considered a
237
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,560
Catholic.
We had two when I was a
238
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,960
teenager, only two schools in
all of the north of Ireland that
239
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,720
were intentionally integrated.
So they were, you know, think
240
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,720
the South in America, like they
wanted to bring Protestants,
241
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,440
Catholics together to educate
them.
242
00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,520
And but usually if you had like
a hippie parent, you went there
243
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,320
because they were kind of hippie
dippie.
244
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,840
Like 5.
Yeah, I get it, because not
245
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,000
everybody's going to want their
kids to actually be integrated
246
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,600
and then community with people
that are different.
247
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:35,880
So I was a wee bit of a weirdo
because I went to a Catholic
248
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,080
kindergarten.
Then I went to a state
249
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,040
elementary, which I would have
been considered Protestant.
250
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,400
We had to sing God Save the
Queen and you know, all that
251
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,080
stuff.
And then I went to an integrated
252
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,280
high school because my mom was a
wee bit of a heavy dubby weirdo.
253
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,640
And then I went to a Catholic
High School, so nobody could
254
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,120
tell what you got.
The whole buffet I did.
255
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,040
The whole sampler platter
schools, all in the north.
256
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,160
Of Ireland.
And to your question, when I
257
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,160
went to the integrated school,
depending on where you were
258
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,640
walking in the city, you would
either receive a derogatory slur
259
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,640
for a Catholic, and then you
could be in another neighborhood
260
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,920
and you'd receive a derogatory
slur for a Protestant.
261
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,520
Oh man, because they're the same
day.
262
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,800
Really.
Yeah, oh, multiple times just
263
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,400
walking down the same Rd. as the
neighborhoods changed.
264
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,080
Wow.
And so we, we recall that we
265
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,920
had, as we described it, a lot
of phlegm dripping from our
266
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,760
ponytails.
Because if it's spit on you,
267
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,720
what?
Yes, So spit on you.
268
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,160
Yes, yes, but.
So we've been wild.
269
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,880
I have not know that.
Literal chunks of like phlegm
270
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,360
from your ponytail.
As a child.
271
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,760
I laugh.
I'm like, oh, Harvey laughed.
272
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,920
Yeah, but that, that's just the
way it is.
273
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,560
And, you know, those are the
more light hearted aspects,
274
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,200
obviously.
I mean, you know, some people
275
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,680
would get beaten up because they
were perceived to be one of the
276
00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:06,280
other.
There was a street that we
277
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,840
walked down to my Catholic High
School where right before we
278
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,160
walked to school 1 morning, a
man was shot dead because he was
279
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,400
presumed to be a Catholic.
So, you know, it's religion.
280
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,680
It was such a different thing
there.
281
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,080
It's so loaded.
So kind of when the Mormon thing
282
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,640
came along, it was like, oh, I
get to be other in a good way,
283
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,360
because authorizing is obviously
usually very bad.
284
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,080
Sure.
But you got to sort of step
285
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,440
outside of this Catholic,
Protestant divide.
286
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,840
Although our Mormons not
considered Protestant.
287
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,240
I mean, obviously they're not
Church of England or whatever,
288
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,280
Presbyterian or Anglican, but
it's still kind of in the vein
289
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,920
it came out of Protestantism.
Yeah.
290
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,440
And I mean honestly when you
look just culturally people were
291
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,640
very Protestant oriented within
the Mormon church, which might
292
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,600
signed absurd in the context of
the United States.
293
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,800
But there when it's so linked
with identity and whether you
294
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,200
want to be a part of Britain and
still remain in an occupied
295
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,160
space or if you would actually
like to be free and self govern,
296
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,000
you know, that's all connected
with what religion you're
297
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,600
perceived to be.
So my experience was that when
298
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,640
people who were had been
Catholic and converted to
299
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,040
Mormonism actually weren't very
welcomed.
300
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,000
Oh.
Wow.
301
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,320
Yeah, it was kind of like, oh,
you're one of one of them.
302
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,400
There was a lot of other ring in
that regard within the Mormon
303
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,640
church.
Wow, that's really interesting.
304
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,040
So they didn't really welcome a
Catholic with open arms
305
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,320
necessarily.
No.
306
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,520
And I mean, that's not true of
every case because there are
307
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,720
some people who were Catholic
converted and did remain.
308
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,920
But where I live particularly,
particularly, and it could have
309
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,880
just been the neighborhood, it
what, you know, people said very
310
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,440
absurd, rude things to people if
they came from a Catholic
311
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,480
background.
So it was a little different
312
00:15:58,480 --> 00:15:59,920
than growing up in the Happy
Valley.
313
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,720
I mean, just a little.
Well, I didn't grow up in Happy
314
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,280
Valley, but it's also quite
different from growing up in the
315
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,520
suburbs of Los Angeles.
Yeah.
316
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:15,120
It's just a wee bit different.
So my mom decided to go back to
317
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,040
the Mormon church when I was 7
1/2 years old.
318
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,600
So right in time for baptism.
Wow.
319
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,120
Yeah.
And what did you think of that?
320
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,720
Was that kind of a shock to your
7 1/2 year old little self?
321
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,800
Honestly, they had a basketball
standard in the gym and I was
322
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,720
delighted as they do so.
Yeah, I even in Ireland they
323
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,040
have a basketball gym, you know.
Interesting.
324
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,480
Here's a funny thing again.
I'm going to draw on about 5
325
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:42,880
stories but I will bring it
back.
326
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,720
If you walked into a Mormon
church in Belfast in the north
327
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,240
of Ireland, it's exactly like
walking into a Mormon church and
328
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,600
Bountiful UT it.
I mean it's the same footprint.
329
00:16:53,640 --> 00:17:00,160
It's the same design.
My former husband worked on
330
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,440
designing Mormon temples too.
That's that's maybe too well,
331
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,000
we'll just leave it there.
But.
332
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,079
Well, Tupples kind of have their
own design, but like the church
333
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,480
that you would go to every
Sunday, the ward house, it's
334
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,960
actually quite interesting
because here in Utah, sorry, I'm
335
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,280
going to digress for just one
little.
336
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,000
We love digressions.
Oh my God, I'm rubbing off on
337
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,119
you.
I love it.
338
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,000
You should see me teach.
I'm all about the digressions.
339
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,400
My students, if they realize
that they can exploit it to get
340
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,240
Oh yeah, you know, they're like,
keep talking.
341
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,400
Exactly.
Less material covered and on the
342
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,840
exam, but the ward houses, some
of the ward houses here in Utah
343
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,160
are actually quite unique and
quite pretty in some cases.
344
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,160
So there's the older buildings.
Yeah, there's houses, ward
345
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,200
houses with like stained glass,
really interesting architecture.
346
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,400
Yeah.
But as I understand it, sometime
347
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,960
in I believe the 1970s, there
was this move pushed out from
348
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,360
the central Mormon church called
Correlation.
349
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:03,320
And that was what made every
church that was built after that
350
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,160
look the same.
So there was a set of standards.
351
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,960
So that's where like that kind
of awful, depressing beige ish
352
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,080
like neutral dank color palette
comes from.
353
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,400
And that's where that very like,
you know, same, same
354
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,360
architecture, if you want to
call it that, boring
355
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,920
architecture comes from.
So it makes sense that a church
356
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,280
built in Ireland would look the
same as this one here, at least
357
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,440
a later 1.
And it probably looked the same
358
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,600
as the church that I attended in
California.
359
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,760
Identical, I'm sure they had and
that's the interesting thing and
360
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:45,600
why I drew in like my ex Mormon
husband too, because no matter
361
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,200
where in the world it was, it's
like the same, right?
362
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,880
And not only do they look the
same, and I'm glad you brought
363
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,240
that correlation thing up
because I think when you like, I
364
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,240
think I remember that night that
you mentioned that word, but
365
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,640
they would put in mechanisms
that don't work in other
366
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,040
countries.
Right.
367
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,360
So, for example, like heating
systems, we don't do forced air
368
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,920
in Ireland.
Like we don't need AC.
369
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,000
It's freezing like 100% of the
time.
370
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,240
Maybe with global warming,
you're going to need it.
371
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,520
So maybe they're just ahead of
the curve.
372
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,840
Maybe it was a prophecy.
Yeah, Yeah.
373
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,840
The Irish will need AC at one
point, but they would put in
374
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,480
just these systems that just
they they don't work because
375
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,160
they're taking a blueprint for a
church here.
376
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,560
Yeah, that works here.
Like we need that pivot between
377
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,960
cold air and hot air and, you
know, we have radiators.
378
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,240
Like it just, it's just so
interesting to me.
379
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,880
So I'm walking into this
building that I, I, I haven't
380
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,600
even heard of Mormons up until
this point.
381
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,360
My mom had actually never
mentioned it.
382
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,840
It's not like we were raised
with Mormon values.
383
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,320
You know, my mom had to
e-cigarrete and, you know, a
384
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,040
glass of Sherry on the odd
occasion.
385
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,960
So like, there was just no
concept of of Mormonism in my
386
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,840
life.
So I walk into this building and
387
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,120
you're even just like, what is
this?
388
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,720
There's a basketball hoop.
What?
389
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,280
There's a stage.
Why do we need a stage?
390
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,120
It's a church from the roadshow,
right?
391
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:13,320
Yeah.
And we?
392
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,920
Did Rd. shows?
You did Rd. shows.
393
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,480
We did Rd. shows and so you're
just it was like a whole like,
394
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,320
am I in Disneyland?
Like that's almost what it.
395
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,600
Felt like and you were excited
yes amazing because you're like.
396
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,200
Oh, this is American, you know,
because a lot of people
397
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,800
emigrated to America and you
grew up with American TV, and
398
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,760
all of a sudden I'm in this
little microcosm of America.
399
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,280
Wow.
Amidst all that turmoil outside.
400
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,400
So you're just like, oh, cool,
Mormons are cool.
401
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,480
And they've got these hot boys
that keep coming to our house.
402
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:49,480
So.
Yeah.
403
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,320
Yeah.
So what about what you learned
404
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,760
in church, like what you were
taught the doctor, and did that
405
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,200
resonate with you?
Did you like it?
406
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,880
Did you not like it?
Were you kind of neutral on it?
407
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,680
Do you remember?
You know, I, I was 7 when the
408
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,000
missionary started to come
around.
409
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,320
So they used to have those.
Some people will remember this.
410
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,200
They would bring a little slide
projector and they'd be like
411
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,360
beep and you would have to hit
the button.
412
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:16,800
So, you know, I was the youngest
kid in my family.
413
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,120
So they give the little button
to me.
414
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,360
And I just remember these like
cheesy movies they show us.
415
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,120
Like there was one about a man
who worked in the cigarette
416
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,520
factory and had this like, big
moral awakening and like left
417
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,680
his job or something.
And then there was that one
418
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,880
where like the mom dies and the
kid comes home from school and
419
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,120
it's all about eternal families
and so.
420
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,480
It was quite.
Entertaining actually, because
421
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,800
again, you know, these cute
American boys came to your house
422
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:53,160
with a slide projector and a
movie projector and they put up
423
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,120
a big screen in your living room
and like showed you movies like
424
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,320
it was all very exciting.
That sounds fun.
425
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,280
But I I had like they actually
never mentioned Jesus or God or
426
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,960
I just like America.
So yeah, I really didn't have
427
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,920
concept, like any concept of
doctrine.
428
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:20,000
I do remember my dad was
concerned just by virtue of the
429
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,600
fact he's like an 8 year old
can't make a decision to commit
430
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,360
to something.
And his attitude was, you know,
431
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,320
if you commit to something, you
should really commit to
432
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,760
something.
I support that, but I also
433
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,400
support you being aware of what
you're actually committing to.
434
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,000
And I don't think you're old
enough.
435
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,160
So he was actually against me
getting baptized, but of course,
436
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320
I was like the dad and, you
know.
437
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,840
Yeah.
And, you know, me and my dad
438
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,520
were very close.
I was his favorite.
439
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,240
Sorry sisters.
So were the baby.
440
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,280
I was the baby.
And so he he said, yes, my
441
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,800
sisters got baptized.
They would have been like, like
442
00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:02,280
maybe 11 and 14 at the time.
So, so yeah, I I had no concept
443
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:07,560
of really God or Heavenly
Father.
444
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,680
That was a new term.
Oh, Heavenly Father.
445
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,280
Yeah, that was a new term
because I just knew God, Jesus,
446
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,000
Mary and the Holy Ghost.
Do they call it the Ghost or the
447
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,400
Spirit?
Mormons call it the Holy Ghost,
448
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,600
but I would imagine that
Catholics and Protestants might
449
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,240
say Holy Spirit.
Yeah, sure.
450
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,600
I was getting those too confused
because yeah, so not really
451
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,920
concept of that.
The first sort of doctrine
452
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,440
awakening that I had was
actually when I was about 11 or
453
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:46,800
12 years old and Ireland was not
a very diverse country at the
454
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,320
time because obviously nobody
wanted to be coming into the
455
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,360
middle of that so.
Would that be a hard sell to
456
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,160
emigrate to Ireland in the
middle of car bombs and
457
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,280
shootings?
Exactly.
458
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,920
And spitting on children.
Yes, it's like, you know, we're
459
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,600
people were just not going to do
that at the time.
460
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,840
So, you know, I didn't I grew up
more with a sense of are you
461
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:11,800
president?
Are you Catholic?
462
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,920
It wasn't really rooted in race.
I didn't really have a concept
463
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,720
of, you know, the issues and
injustice that I know I know
464
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,280
about because I live in the
United States.
465
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,560
But that just wasn't sort of
really a factor of our our
466
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,800
being.
But I find out about the policy
467
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,320
of the priesthood and not giving
priesthood to black men, right?
468
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,200
And I was, as I say, about 11 or
12.
469
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,960
And I was like, what?
So this you would have found
470
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,720
about out about this after they
had changed that policy, right,
471
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,680
Because they changed it in 1978,
but that was still a fairly
472
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,720
recent thing.
Yes.
473
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,880
So it was like early 80s and I
was like, and my first thought
474
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,880
was, Oh my goodness, I'm going
to have to tell my mom because
475
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,680
my mom was very, as I had
mentioned, like we bet hippie
476
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,160
dippie, she was quite involved
in politics, but she was
477
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,960
involved in like the, the peace,
love and unity politics, not the
478
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,560
one side of the other.
So she had like a, a sense of
479
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,360
social, social justice, right.
So I knew that that would not be
480
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:20,520
good news for.
Her.
481
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,040
Makes sense.
Yeah, I was like.
482
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,080
Was that weighing on you?
Was that heavy?
483
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,120
Yes.
I was like, I'm going to have to
484
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,440
tell my mom this like terrible
news and that.
485
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,520
The church didn't allow black
people to or black men, we
486
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,560
should say, because they still
don't allow women, no women, the
487
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,200
priesthood, but they didn't
allow black men to have their,
488
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,440
their special priesthood before
1978.
489
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,120
Yeah, and you know, as I say, I
wasn't really reused with even
490
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,400
concepts of God or anything like
that, but I was raised with a
491
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,960
sense of social justice.
Which?
492
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,640
Is probably why I am now
humanities an International
493
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,920
Studies professor is definitely
a factor.
494
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,280
You know, like, that was just
always in my household.
495
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,920
Yeah.
And so I finally brought up the
496
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,440
courage to tell my mom.
And I was like, mom, like, I'm
497
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,920
so sorry.
Like, I remember crying.
498
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,080
Like, this is terrible.
They're not good people.
499
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,520
Did you think this would be a
deal breaker for her?
500
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,160
Oh yeah, I thought that was it.
I that was the way.
501
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,280
They never go back.
Gonna leave the church after
502
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:18,720
that.
Wow.
503
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,400
Yeah, because even as a young
person I did not feel good about
504
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,520
being associated with something
like that.
505
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,760
It just felt so fundamentally
wrong to my wee child soul.
506
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,040
Absolutely.
You know, and so and she goes,
507
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,840
oh, yeah.
And I was like, wait, what?
508
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:40,280
You knew?
And I'm not casting dispersions
509
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,840
on my mother at all because I,
you know, maintained she had
510
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,280
that social justice lens.
But it's the the church because
511
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,000
the answer she gave me right
after just come straight out of
512
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,640
the church.
She said, well, if you believe
513
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,320
Joseph Smith is a prophet, it
doesn't matter that it feels
514
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,960
bad.
And I was like, wait, what?
515
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,520
And so that's just the line for
the, you know, I asked that
516
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,280
question every set of
missionaries that came in, every
517
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,720
time the Bishop talked to me,
I'm like, please help me make
518
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,680
sense of this thing.
This thing doesn't make sense.
519
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,120
And I got that rode answer.
Well, if you believe Joseph
520
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,680
Smith is a prophet, it just all
falls into place.
521
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,760
I'm like, it's not falling.
So it was your your introduction
522
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,560
to mental gymnastics, cognitive
dissonance, those things that
523
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,080
many Mormons experience before
they become ex Mormons.
524
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,360
Exactly.
Even as a wee teen so.
525
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,040
All right, so you put that on
your shelf.
526
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,440
I mean, that might be completely
because you kept asking
527
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,560
questions about it, but you
continue to attend the church.
528
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:51,680
I, yes, I will point out that I
as a teen was not super thrilled
529
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:58,440
by church and I drank and I
smoked weed and had the odd
530
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,160
cigarette and the things that
regular teens just do and things
531
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,000
with boys.
And you know, I, I would do that
532
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,400
and then I would come to church
and then feel ragingly guilty,
533
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,080
like I was a terrible, terrible
person.
534
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,640
And I can remember young women's
which for the non Mormons like
535
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,880
there is a it's a the youth
portion for the ladies from.
536
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:25,760
Age 12 to 18.
That's it.
537
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,200
You get taught great skills like
ironing and.
538
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,200
We learned to.
We learned to put on makeup at
539
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,760
one point.
Oh, I well, you got to make
540
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,480
yourself pretty for the lads,
right?
541
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,800
So I remember one time one of my
teachers saying if you do
542
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,040
anything with a boy, anything,
you are basically like the sons
543
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,760
of perdition, which was a phrase
they like to roll light.
544
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,720
So basically like the devil.
Himself.
545
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,600
Yeah.
I remember that being taught to
546
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,520
me as well, that, you know, the
worst sin was denying the Holy
547
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,000
Ghost and that the church was
true.
548
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,920
Yeah.
The second worst sin was.
549
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,200
Was murder.
Yeah.
550
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,080
And then the third worst sin was
premarital sex.
551
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,680
Yeah.
Or any other sexual activity
552
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,040
that wasn't condoned.
Yeah.
553
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,240
Like next to murderers, like,
can we just point that I like,
554
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,440
Yeah.
They use those words.
555
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,200
It's literally next to murder.
Yeah, so again, your poor little
556
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,200
hormonal teenage head that's
like having feelings and wanting
557
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,960
to explore is going wait, what I
OK.
558
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,160
I'm condemned, I'm the worst
for.
559
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,320
Oh, I want to give your teenage
self a hug, Claire.
560
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,960
I I know it's hard.
It's, I know, yeah.
561
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,080
Like the guilt?
I've been there.
562
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,040
Yeah, like, you know, you were
in that environment too, because
563
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,000
it's like you're fighting
against everything you're
564
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,360
feeling.
And like I am a freak.
565
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,120
I am a Sinner.
I'm, you know.
566
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,360
What's wrong with me?
Yeah.
567
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,320
So that was that was my teenix
like experience.
568
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,640
I, I wasn't like super into it
and actually funny story.
569
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,080
So the Mormon church sparked my
love of basketball and by the
570
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,840
time I got to college, I played
basketball at college, which
571
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,280
you're all going to be so
impressed right now when I say
572
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,200
that in Ireland, No, like it's,
it's not the same.
573
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,600
It's just like the people that
you hang out with and go to the
574
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,200
Students Union and have a beer
with.
575
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,160
And I mean, nobody comes to
watch your games or anything,
576
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,880
right?
Like you're just just fun.
577
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,280
You're just playing some ball,
you know?
578
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,800
We should play some ball.
We should.
579
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,680
I love it.
I'm really bad at it.
580
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,000
Me too, but I love it.
OK, well, we should.
581
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,200
We should.
Like I have honestly for like
582
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,760
the past decade tried, tried to
find a pickup game for like 45
583
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,040
plus year old women in Utah.
Haven't found it yet.
584
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,760
But yeah, maybe we'll start one.
Search continues.
585
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,400
Yeah, the search continues.
So we had a lot of fun together.
586
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,480
I had a a lot of fun with more
than one of my basketball
587
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,440
coaches.
I will add they were other
588
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,760
students.
There was no okay, that's good
589
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,200
predatory behavior happening.
So yeah, it was my social
590
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,080
circle.
I loved it.
591
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,280
And my mom would how use a BYU
student, you know, they do the
592
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,920
study abroad and then they'd
send them over to examine the
593
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,800
people of Ireland for a week,
you know, And so they'd asked
594
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,080
church members to for free,
bring a complete stranger into
595
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,720
your home and give them an
experience of Ireland as you do
596
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,360
of an evening.
So my mom had this boy from
597
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,520
Provost staying in our house.
And so she'd just be like, take
598
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,360
him somewhere.
And I'm like, we're I, I like
599
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,640
he's a Mormon because we went to
bars.
600
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,200
We went to clubs because that's
just what you did.
601
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,120
The drinking age is 18, so you
can go out.
602
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,000
I didn't necessarily drink, but
that was just our social life.
603
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,720
So she's like, take him to the
basketball.
604
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,800
So I took him the basketball,
the basketball.
605
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,120
So I took him with me.
He was all excited.
606
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,480
And all my friends there were
like, oh.
607
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,040
Claire.
You were so Irish lying for
608
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,400
being drunk as wrote off and
they were like you were wrote
609
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,400
off last night.
You were so drunk, you.
610
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,480
And I'm like, like.
Jesus, no.
611
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Mormon boy here.
Like just donut dying.
612
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,240
And they kept going on and on
and on and I was like, Oh no, my
613
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,320
cover's blown.
Like my, you know, my wretched
614
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,040
teen years.
My my covers blown hilarious.
615
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,160
So yeah, that was, that was
awkward.
616
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,640
So that's how I, you know, I
wasn't like a super duper Mormon
617
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,840
teenager.
Yeah, sounds like you were kind
618
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,200
of conflicted about it, maybe
not living all of the principles
619
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,720
that they would prefer.
You to live.
620
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,840
As well as some doubts, at least
regarding, you know, the 1978
621
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,440
switcheroo.
Yeah.
622
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,560
So then what happened?
Like why didn't you just drift
623
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,840
away from the church like a lot
of people do in your situation?
624
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,640
So I think there were just a
couple of events that sort of
625
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,480
solidified me being in the
church, one of which was like
626
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,200
uncontrollable guilt for the
things that I was doing.
627
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,160
You know, I it's we joke and say
Irish people have a lot of
628
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,200
guilt.
You know, there's cultural
629
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,280
differences.
There's also the Catholic
630
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,880
influence there of guilt as
well.
631
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,360
And then the Mormon guilt.
Like it's like, Oh my God, my
632
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,920
guilt complex is neither size of
Texas.
633
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,120
You have the guilt trifecta.
I have the guilt trifecta.
634
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,120
The guilt Trinity.
Yes, three.
635
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520
And yeah, one.
Let's join that church.
636
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,160
Yeah.
So there's that aspect of it.
637
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,120
I also have ADHD, which was not
diagnosed too much later in
638
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,080
life, but maybe that could be.
I mean, I know there's stuff
639
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,480
around rejection sensitivity
with ADHD and things like that.
640
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,640
So like, I don't know if that's
a factor in it.
641
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,960
But there I just had this, this
guilt where I thought that if I
642
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,040
didn't start being a really good
Mormon, that really bad things
643
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,840
would happen.
And I think that maybe part of
644
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,720
that was also linked to, sorry,
this is like getting quite deep
645
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,400
and heavy, like realizing some
of these things, but with the
646
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,320
unsafe world that I lived in
because there was conflict.
647
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,400
And so you're like, OK, if I'm
good, I'll be safe.
648
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,239
I won't get hurt.
My family won't get hurt.
649
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,159
Like you're you're just
struggling to make these
650
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,639
connections.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
651
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,960
And I feel like, I don't know if
you heard that explicitly in
652
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,480
church, but I feel like that was
some messaging that we did here
653
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,480
as well, even though I grew up
in an incredibly safe
654
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,320
neighborhood and situation.
Yeah, I can totally see how that
655
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,120
would have resonated with you
and why you would have latched
656
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,280
onto that.
Yeah, like the idea of the
657
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,920
protection right and.
Right.
658
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Even the garments, which of
course you wouldn't have been
659
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,560
wearing at that time.
Yeah, if we have any, you know,
660
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,080
non Mormon listeners that are
not familiar, Mormons have
661
00:34:56,159 --> 00:35:00,120
special undergarments that they
wear once they have been through
662
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,680
the temple ceremony.
I never wore them because I
663
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,400
never went through the temple
ceremony.
664
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,400
But they have this this idea
that is taught in church that
665
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,360
they will protect you from harm,
not just spiritual harm, but
666
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,800
actually literally physical
harm.
667
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,120
Yeah, and that's a, that's a
deep worm to Burrow in
668
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,840
somebody's head.
Yeah.
669
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,000
Because then obviously you're
not going to take them off,
670
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,040
right?
Because you're going to feel
671
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,360
like something.
You're not supposed to, right?
672
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,040
You're unprotected if you take
them off.
673
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,760
Yeah.
And again, if they work for you,
674
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,680
that is great.
I'm so happy for you.
675
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,080
It's no shade on them, but it's
so important to highlight how
676
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,320
that actually can cause a lot of
psychological distress.
677
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,320
Absolutely.
And when you're young, you don't
678
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,000
really understand why you just
have this feeling.
679
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,280
So I actually then, you know,
Speaking of ADHD, just went all
680
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,760
the way to the other side.
And I completed about four years
681
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,720
of seminary in like 6 months.
Oh wow.
682
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,120
Because I felt like I had to
complete it otherwise the
683
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,400
protection wouldn't be full, you
know, so I couldn't just do a
684
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,320
couple of weeks again, that's,
you know, the hyper focus.
685
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,440
I had to go all in.
So I am trying to do my like
686
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,840
high school leaving exams and
catch up in four years of
687
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,800
seminary.
We didn't have it like the
688
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,920
school has it here.
We we just got the little
689
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,680
folders and worksheets and you
know, again, for the non
690
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,720
Mormons, it's it's a basically
religious instruction about your
691
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,000
faiths on a teen.
Level it's supposed to be.
692
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,600
Yeah.
I did 4 years of early morning
693
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,000
seminary, and some of it was,
you know, they followed the book
694
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,320
and then some of my teachers
went way off script and spent a
695
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,920
year talking about how the
apocalypse was going to go down.
696
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,440
So that was fun.
Anyway, that's a different
697
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:52,360
topic.
Oh, yeah.
698
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,640
I don't want to derail it.
Another episode.
699
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,960
You worked through essentially 4
years of religious instruction
700
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,080
in six months.
Yeah, I did.
701
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,920
And it was a lot.
And but I got lots of positive
702
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,640
reinforcements like, oh, this is
good, this is good, yay.
703
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,960
Like and you know, obviously
then like your leaders latch on
704
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,760
to that.
They're like, she's coming back.
705
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,960
So there was a lot of, you know,
outreach from the young women's
706
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,600
president and the Bishop.
So they would give me, like,
707
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,160
little jobs because I function
really well.
708
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Like, if somebody gives me a
job, I'm like, yes, I'm in,
709
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,080
like, I'll do this job.
And then they asked me to give,
710
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,160
like, the talks in church.
But it was funny because my
711
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,920
sense of dress hadn't caught up
with my new religious awakening.
712
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,960
And so I would wear like, I was
a big fan of 70s clothes, so I
713
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,280
wore hot pants, so.
I would like to see you in hot.
714
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,800
Pants.
Yeah, I've got some pictures.
715
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,520
So I'd wear like tights with
like hot pants over the top,
716
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,680
like glittery ones and
everything, or very short, like
717
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,760
tight dresses.
And so that is actually when I
718
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,920
got my first awareness of like
body shaming or slut shaming.
719
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,400
And I was told that I was
distracting the bishopric when I
720
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,520
gave my talk because my skirt
was too short.
721
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,520
OK, I'm sorry.
And how old were you exactly?
722
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,320
17.
OK, that is really messed up.
723
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,240
I don't care what you were
wearing or if you were wearing
724
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,640
anything at all.
These grown men should not have.
725
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Yeah, I had those thoughts and
feelings.
726
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,640
And if they did, they should
keep them very solidly to
727
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,680
themselves.
That's completely inappropriate.
728
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,280
Yeah, but it was like, you know,
these group of men have been
729
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,160
saying you need to stop dressing
the way you are dressing.
730
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,720
And, you know, I am tall.
I'm like 5 foot 10, but I've
731
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,880
been 5 foot 10 from I was like
11.
732
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,680
And so I was sort of like this
younger person, I don't know,
733
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,840
17's, not like 17 night.
Like I didn't have the awareness
734
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:05,200
of like beauty standards really,
or, you know, my legs or which
735
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,000
were apparently very
distracting.
736
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,280
I I just was wearing a dress.
Well, they're long and beautiful
737
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,000
legs, but regardless, I maintain
that middle-aged men should not
738
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,120
have been looking at you like
that.
739
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,560
Registering that that that my
legs were great.
740
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,200
So it was kind of weird because
it was like the the awakening
741
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:30,520
coming back, but also like shame
level 500, you know, was was
742
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:35,560
starting to happen.
Then I went to university on
743
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,520
even, I actually shared this
with my kids recently.
744
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,200
Some of the books that we had to
read, I was like, I, I feel so
745
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,040
guilty.
Like they're swearing and
746
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,520
talking about sex in these
books.
747
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,480
Like, should I make a stand?
And maybe I could bear my
748
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,360
testimony about it like kind of
a thing.
749
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,000
But like, oh.
You precious thing.
750
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,400
Yeah, so, but I read them and,
you know, I I wasn't very vocal,
751
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,120
like I never was like a
testimony bearer because it I
752
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,400
just.
Like on some level I wasn't
753
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,920
feeling it, you know?
It's kind of cringy, yeah, to do
754
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,240
that in, you know, any situation
other than surrounded by
755
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,360
Mormons.
Yeah, and I, I didn't even do it
756
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,720
surrounded by Mormons.
Yeah, it's kind of cringy there
757
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,200
too.
I'm the same.
758
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,480
Yeah, I didn't do that very
often and I'm only one coerced.
759
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,200
Yes, or prompted or instructed
to do so.
760
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:31,800
So and all all the while that's
all going on, my oldest sister
761
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,440
emigrates to Salt Lake City.
Wow.
762
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,480
Yeah.
So.
763
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,160
She was the pioneer.
She was the.
764
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,560
Literal Pioneer Blazer.
Yes, she got a green card on the
765
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,160
green card lottery.
Wow.
766
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,640
Which is a lucky a legit program
by the way, in case somebody's
767
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,440
like what yes, and she was
documented people Cam dine.
768
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:57,760
So she got a green card on that
came to America Salt Lake City.
769
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,720
So that became my destination
for my college summers to come
770
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:07,000
to America for the first time.
Wow, and were your sisters still
771
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,480
Mormon at the time or are they
still?
772
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,440
Nobody is.
Nobody is.
773
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,240
Nobody is anymore, but at that
time.
774
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,040
Yes, they were very OK.
And the only people we knew in
775
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,840
all of America was tax
missionaries from Salt Lake
776
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,040
City.
Yeah, that makes sense.
777
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,000
So this cute, little, lovely
missionary couple, senior
778
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,040
couples, so like old people that
go on a mission after they're
779
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,240
retired, had come to Ireland and
they took her in.
780
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,000
She lived in their basement for
six months till she find a job
781
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,600
and a roommate.
And they were very kind,
782
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,280
wonderful, wonderful people.
And so I was very close to my
783
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,880
sister.
And so I sort of come to Salt
784
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,200
Lake City for the summer and the
second time I came, I got AJ1
785
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,760
visa and which allows like
college students to come work
786
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,520
for a summer in America and see
us foreigners do things the
787
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,040
right way, despite what the
media will tell you so.
788
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,480
Be careful, Claire, we don't
want you shot in the street.
789
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,880
Sorry, we're not going to go
there.
790
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,720
Yes, for now, but the salty hose
will be clear where we stand if
791
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:15,160
asked.
So there is that.
792
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,680
I'll, I'll get a little a little
spicy.
793
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,840
Not even salty when it comes to
talking, talking about my my we
794
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,080
immigration story.
So yeah, I came and I worked at
795
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:27,680
ZZ MI.
That's right.
796
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,080
I remember, yes, With your
skirts, that we're still too
797
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,080
short somehow.
Oh, yeah, We talked about that.
798
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,080
We talked about that, Yeah.
I have always been a whore, what
799
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,560
can I say?
You've always been a hoe.
800
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,240
Now you're a salty hoe.
I have just yes, I'm just
801
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:43,240
leaning into my true identity
that was gifted to me by the
802
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:47,400
Mormon church actually so
because I got shamed for my legs
803
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,240
from quite a young age,
apparently.
804
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:52,520
How dare you have a body.
I I just I'm so sorry like I'm
805
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,360
just so sorry for for OK, so you
came to Utah for the summers.
806
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,760
You had AJ1 visa, had AJ1 visa,
We're.
807
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Working here.
Working here and the church was
808
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,720
really fun here.
Compared to Ireland, you're
809
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,440
like, what the hell?
Yeah, so.
810
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,280
It made it more fun.
Like young single adults?
811
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,360
OK, so like more people in your
age group.
812
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:12,360
That's fun.
OK.
813
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,360
There was like 5 boys in
Ireland.
814
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It was small, right?
815
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,640
Yeah.
There weren't many people.
816
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,600
No, yeah, very small.
So it was like, Oh my God, like
817
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,960
and they did activities and
like.
818
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:25,600
Fun.
Dances.
819
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,600
Dances like going to D.
'S like oh I remember D's.
820
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,560
So I think I fell in love with
America.
821
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,920
It makes sense.
I thought it was Mormons also.
822
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,160
No car bombing or I assume,
people spitting on you.
823
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,280
Peaceful.
Yeah.
824
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,160
Peaceful.
So I mean, love that.
825
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,720
It's a little different now, but
back in the 90s, it was.
826
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,480
Yeah, a very different place.
It was, you know, and it was
827
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,200
like, what you saw on the TV.
Yeah.
828
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,440
So I think in my head, there was
sort of some confusion there,
829
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,600
you know.
So I met a Mormon boy.
830
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,600
We How old were you?
I was. 20.
831
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,480
Oh wow.
That's right.
832
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,320
So young, the age of my youngest
child.
833
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,840
No.
And yeah, we, they had this
834
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,720
going home party for me.
And he sang songs to me with his
835
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,040
friend in this like barbershop
quartet style.
836
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:15,440
Wow.
Yes.
837
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,240
And yeah.
And then he was singing a song
838
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:23,160
and there was like a speaking
part in it.
839
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,400
And he announced everybody that
I was going to be his wife.
840
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,840
Yes.
And we we had talked about it,
841
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,240
but I didn't know he was going
to do that that night.
842
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,160
So you were dating already?
We were dating.
843
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,880
OK, yes, and, and we actually
even had like a little ring.
844
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,840
Like a promise ring or an
engagement ring?
845
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,240
Well, it was, you know, a whole
other episode.
846
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,680
I, I didn't at that time feel
deserving of a very expensive
847
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,040
diamond ring because I had
received the message through
848
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,760
dating that they're so expensive
and, you know, I didn't want to
849
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,160
be a bother.
So it was this Pretty Little
850
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,120
amber ring from a, an antique
store, but it was beautiful.
851
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,400
And my daughter wears at night
like it's, you know, it's, it's,
852
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,920
but it was a sort of minimizing.
Yes, you were making yourself
853
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,800
yes, whereas in fact you deserve
the world.
854
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,240
I was like an $80 ring is great.
I love it.
855
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,120
So.
So yeah.
856
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,560
You know, my ring was very cheap
as well, but part of that was
857
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,680
because I didn't want to wear a
blood diamond.
858
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,920
That is actually exactly the
same as myself when he bought me
859
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,920
a diamond and that ring went
away for that very very reason.
860
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,880
So I like that We are ethically
aligned my friend.
861
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:38,680
Yeah, in some ways, I mean, it's
hard in this world to make
862
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,360
purely ethical decisions because
everything is contaminated.
863
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,720
But something is as clear as
that yes, seem like.
864
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,600
It's a no brainer.
Yeah, exactly.
865
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,960
Keep going.
Yeah, so.
866
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,920
So he said that, he announced.
He announced to all our Mormon
867
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,640
friends, you would be.
His wife and you had been dating
868
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,800
for a summer.
Less than a summer.
869
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,800
A summer a summer, So a couple a
few months.
870
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,400
Terrible idea.
Really.
871
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:08,400
I mean it seems so romantical
and also does.
872
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,000
It, I mean, it is kind of the
Mormon way especially, yes, back
873
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,040
then, yeah.
Because if you can't have sex
874
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,080
before marriage, that does tend
to result in short engagements.
875
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,360
Because.
You weirdly want to have sex.
876
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,280
Hormones are a hell of a drug.
What?
877
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,480
What?
What a terrible thing to want.
878
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,840
Like, Oh yeah.
Right, but you can't indulge
879
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,360
because that is next to murder.
So you have to get married
880
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:31,600
first.
And then they'll stop you
881
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,680
getting married in the temples.
Then all your friends and family
882
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,480
will know.
So lean and pure all the way.
883
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,640
So I went back to Ireland to go
back to school and he was here.
884
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,960
We wrote long romantic letters.
And.
885
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,560
You know, I sound so old.
It was not like now there was no
886
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,200
phone calls because it was
horrifically cost prohibitive.
887
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,640
Yes.
So we had probably one a month.
888
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,840
My parents would get very upset
about our phone bill.
889
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Sometimes I would run to the pay
phone, like the phone boxes and
890
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,720
coins and yes like about £10 or
$10.10.
891
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,160
Pounds.
Just to be like, hello, I love
892
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:12,480
you.
Wow.
893
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,280
Very romantical.
And yeah, so then the following
894
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,960
April, I flew to Salt Lake City
and we got married.
895
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,720
Wow, that's a whirlwind.
Yeah, he did come in February to
896
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:29,040
Ireland for a visit, so to meet
the family and all that.
897
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,760
So the wedding was all planned,
it was great, blah blah blah.
898
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,400
Came to America, got married
because it was the most
899
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,560
efficient way visa wise.
That makes sense because.
900
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:44,160
He was coming back to Ireland,
so gosh, that's a whole other
901
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,400
episode.
So we did that.
902
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,560
He came back to Ireland and then
we were like Mormon celebrities.
903
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,760
Oh, I bet.
I had a husband from Salt Lake
904
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:53,520
City.
Yes.
905
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,040
Yeah.
So there was that.
906
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,440
I'm just going to do the Cliff
Notes version, and obviously
907
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,880
we're going to revisit stuff in
future episodes for both of us
908
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,400
in terms of the stories.
So we got married, came back,
909
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,320
Salt Lake City, Mormon
celebrity.
910
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,000
He was the Bishop by the time he
was 26 years old.
911
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,120
Oh, that's so young.
So young.
912
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,120
So by that time we had two
children.
913
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:26,680
He was the Bishop and we had
just boughten, boughten,
914
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,840
boughten well.
Now you sound like a Utah you
915
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,320
bought in a house.
I bought in a house we'd
916
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:39,560
actually bought in our second
house because you know that we
917
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,640
we had some good opportunities,
which I like to remind my
918
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,160
children's father of when he
said we had a hard life starting
919
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,560
out.
We actually did not.
920
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,240
We were buying our second house
by I was 25, he was 26.
921
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,640
It was beautiful neighborhood,
but it was very rundown.
922
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:57,040
It was.
Where was the neighborhood?
923
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,480
Just outside of Belfast, OK,
it's a little time called
924
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,880
Jordan's time.
It has a university, so it's
925
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,080
just, it's like a little village
really.
926
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,360
It was a farming community
that's a little bigger.
927
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,200
It's growing up around the
university.
928
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,720
We have a beach, a beautiful
place to raise children.
929
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,680
By this time, peace, we had the
ceasefire.
930
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,760
Things were different.
And yeah, I walked my children
931
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,240
to elementary school every day
looking at the fishing boats on
932
00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:29,640
the shore.
I mean, it was it was very
933
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,560
beautiful and a lovely place to
live.
934
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,280
Really.
So he was the Bishop.
935
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,640
I was the Bishop's wife then.
Just non consensually.
936
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:46,240
So had this unofficial calling
and then I get accepted into my
937
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:47,240
PhD program.
Yay.
938
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,520
So I'm doing my PHDI have two
children, my husband's the
939
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,120
Bishop, he's in school and of
course that takes priority.
940
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,680
So it's like I have a dirty
little secret.
941
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,480
It's like I'm going off to be a
stripper at night.
942
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,000
So he comes.
Stripping or PhD terminal
943
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,680
degree, it's pretty much the
same either way.
944
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,880
Yeah, so he would come home from
his bishops meeting and then I
945
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:15,240
was thereby permitted to leave
for my studies at 9:00 PM after
946
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,280
raising two children all day and
yes, sounds exhausting.
947
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,920
Yes, wow.
I also had some terrible part
948
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,720
time jobs to make ends meet
because he was in school, like
949
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:26,280
including.
Being a church janitor.
950
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:27,480
I was the.
Church janitor.
951
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,400
I know you would have made more
money as a stripper.
952
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,840
Probably we should have done
that instead of our pH DS.
953
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,600
I know, right?
We probably, yeah, be in a
954
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,400
different spot for sure.
Yeah.
955
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,080
Well, yeah, probably in a lot of
ways.
956
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,080
Yeah, that's.
That would have been an
957
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,960
interesting like, you know, that
sliding doors movie like.
958
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,800
Well, yeah, I love that movie,
actually.
959
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,600
It's a good.
Movie.
960
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,760
Yeah, there's Stripper.
Life and.
961
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,480
PhD life?
Yes.
962
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,560
Well, certainly.
No shade on our stripper
963
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:53,160
friends.
No.
964
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,920
Our sex workers, Absolutely.
I, you know, I am sorry for the
965
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,120
way that you are sometimes
treated.
966
00:50:58,280 --> 00:50:59,560
Absolutely.
Yeah.
967
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:01,760
Anyway, OK, so you're doing your
PhD at night.
968
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,000
Doing all that.
And his assignments right where
969
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,160
you're typing his.
Still typing his assignments
970
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,560
while nursing with one child on
a boob.
971
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,640
Yeah, so.
So yeah, just working away, just
972
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,680
exhausted.
I, I think I've had a
973
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,080
dysregulated nervous system from
probably approximately then.
974
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,640
And yeah.
Since your first child was born,
975
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,360
I.
Would imagine.
976
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,160
I mean, because it's, it's just
chaos.
977
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,840
It's it's like, and your job is
to support the Bishop and all
978
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,120
that stuff.
So Fast forward through all
979
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,800
those years, another child PhD
debacle situation, all this
980
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,200
stuff, emigrate to America,
various reasons, the dollars in
981
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,760
the toilet, We get 2 1/2 to
every one of ours from Ireland.
982
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,400
We make a 500% profit on this
house that we sold.
983
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,280
So like we had this very dreamy,
privileged immigration
984
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,480
situation.
Kids were all American citizens
985
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,560
born abroad, so they had their
stuff.
986
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,720
I just had to get mine.
We come here, he walks right
987
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:05,680
into this great job at an
architecture firm.
988
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,680
We buy a house with cash.
Amazing.
989
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:13,960
I was 33 years old, mortgage
free, my little Mcmansion in
990
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,520
suburban Utah, Davis County.
Davis County, all right?
991
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,760
Yeah, yeah.
So we're there and I'm like, Oh
992
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,920
my God, we're going to be so
supported by the ward.
993
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,920
I'm going to have all these
friends and it's going to be
994
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,240
amazing and blah blah blah.
I feel like you're foreshadowing
995
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:33,240
right now, Claire.
OK, so did you have a lot of
996
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:35,480
friends?
That would be a hard nose.
997
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:41,560
So the time which is relevant is
2007 and we we moved to Leyton.
998
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,600
I have no concept of America,
American politics other than
999
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,600
America's just a place everybody
wants to live and it's amazing.
1000
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,480
So go to the ward.
Some lovely people in the ward,
1001
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,800
people that I still know and
love dearly, but they're just it
1002
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,080
didn't feel the same.
You know, I didn't I didn't feel
1003
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:07,200
like I'd good mom friends, you
know, like I had an Ireland and
1004
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,000
I actually entered quite a
depressive episode.
1005
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,160
I've been, you know, very lucky
in terms of mental health and
1006
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,680
I've, you know, no postpartum
things or anything, but I, I for
1007
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,320
the first time took
antidepressants because I felt
1008
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,360
so anchor less.
And I was in this church that
1009
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,040
was supposed to be the same, but
wasn't the same.
1010
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,520
And it just was just sort of a
giant jumble.
1011
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,720
And weirdly, like, you think you
moved to Salt Lake City and
1012
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:38,640
you're going to be so solidified
in your faith, like you're in
1013
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,840
the Mormon capital.
And and it actually went the
1014
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,600
other way for me.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
1015
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:49,480
It was the start of the end and
we would have these like lessons
1016
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:54,760
and Relief Society about how to
prepare for a nuclear attack
1017
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,880
and.
Like right, like all the prepper
1018
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:57,520
stuff.
Oh.
1019
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,320
My God.
And there's like this cute old
1020
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,760
lady and she's in going, so get
towels and soak them and like
1021
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,800
put them around the perimeter of
your home.
1022
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,200
And I'm just like, dear God.
Like what are we doing here?
1023
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,320
What?
And then like I'm like, oh, I
1024
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,440
have anxiety now.
I like, you know, it was just
1025
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,080
like, I what?
I what it is this organization,
1026
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,400
I don't get it.
So there's that.
1027
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,560
I'll, I'll, I'll just briefly
describe sort of the main points
1028
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,880
of, of what contributed to the
exit.
1029
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:34,160
So it's 2000 and seven 2008
election who's up for president?
1030
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,880
And I just thought who's this
hot guy?
1031
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,560
And people in Ireland loved
Barack Obama, right?
1032
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,720
Because he's Irish, so.
Or we claim him at least.
1033
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,720
Yeah, So.
I thought it was from Kenya.
1034
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,440
Hold on.
And Ireland.
1035
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:55,000
So he's Irish Yeah, well, I
mean, it's a fairpoint, but his
1036
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,760
mother's hearts we Right.
We actually have a Barack Obama
1037
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,120
gas station.
Oh, how fun in Ireland.
1038
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,240
I would like to visit that.
Yeah, so like when we.
1039
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,040
When we take our trip to
Ireland.
1040
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,960
Claire, yes, I will take you on
a wee tour.
1041
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,240
I love it.
So I put a sign in my yard
1042
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,400
because I was like, I what?
People can openly share their
1043
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,320
political affiliations and not
die.
1044
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,400
I mean, clearly things are very
different right now, but this
1045
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,680
was the early 2000s, right?
That's right.
1046
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,640
So I come from a place where my
mom wanted to run for public
1047
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,640
office and we were like, no,
we're going to get our windows
1048
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:29,920
broken.
Like you're going to get shot.
1049
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,200
Like you can't do it.
So I felt, I was like, you felt
1050
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,640
free, the land of the free.
Yeah.
1051
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,960
And I was like, I'm going to put
because I like this guy.
1052
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:41,360
And if you had have said is he a
Democrat or Republican, I would
1053
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:47,440
have been like a what?
I yeah, what I So yeah, I did
1054
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,480
that and the letters started
letters.
1055
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,360
Letters.
Anonymous letters, Yes.
1056
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,680
Oh, no.
In the mail with a stamp.
1057
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,320
Oh, my Lord, that is terrible.
Yeah.
1058
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:06,240
And in the letters it said.
This line always stuck out to
1059
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:09,680
me.
Think about putting a Chicago
1060
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,960
gangster in capital letters.
R White House.
1061
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,440
So wow.
Emphasizing you are an outsider,
1062
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,120
like go back to your socialist
land.
1063
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,600
That was also mentioned about me
being a European socialist at
1064
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:26,920
1.20.
No.
1065
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,320
And I was just so confused and
scared because of course that my
1066
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,960
name and address was like, you
know how you'd see the scary
1067
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,240
movies and they cut things like
newspapers and like I'd like.
1068
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:41,000
They didn't do that, but they
printed it and stuck it on so
1069
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:42,520
you can identify their
handwriting.
1070
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:49,040
So it was like scary, I scary.
I didn't feel very safe and I, I
1071
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,760
actually called our local Police
Department and they said, you
1072
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,160
know, you're actually not the
first person to call like this
1073
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,040
and there's nothing we can do
unless they threaten your life
1074
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,600
or your property.
How many letters did you get?
1075
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,880
Three in total.
Do you think they were all from
1076
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,080
the same person?
Yes, and I believe that they
1077
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,040
were a member of the State
Council.
1078
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,440
Oh, I'm pretty sure I knew who
it was.
1079
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:16,640
Wow, yeah.
So there was that, and then came
1080
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,200
Prop 8.
Prop 8.
1081
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:23,200
I remember that well.
So Prop 8 was the reason.
1082
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:28,240
And I remember vividly one night
everybody was in bed, all the
1083
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,800
kids were asleep, my husband was
asleep, and I snuck off like I
1084
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:33,400
was going to do a dirty bad
thing.
1085
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,880
And I watched a documentary
about Prop 8 and my world
1086
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,680
exploded.
And just for all our listeners
1087
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,680
that might not remember Prop 8,
I think I mentioned it as well.
1088
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,800
That was also, I was well out by
then, but that was the first
1089
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,640
time I sent in my resignation,
my formal resignation to the
1090
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,760
church.
So that was the constitutional
1091
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,080
proposition in California
banning gay marriage, right?
1092
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,400
Yep.
And tell us the connection to
1093
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,360
the Mormon Church.
Remind us of that.
1094
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,720
Well, I was hearing in the ward
that we were encouraged to
1095
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,280
donate money to block gay
marriage.
1096
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:13,160
I heard that from people that
had children in California, that
1097
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,480
they were trying to get, you
know, specific demographics of
1098
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,360
people to lead the charge, so to
speak, to battle this on behalf
1099
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,640
of God and the universe on
earth.
1100
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,760
You know, And I was just like,
what?
1101
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:33,520
Like, again, what came up for me
when I find out about black men
1102
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,800
in the priesthood, that same
feeling came back of just this
1103
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,360
is like morally repugnant.
It's not good.
1104
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,040
I don't like it.
Everything in my body is telling
1105
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:48,600
me this is wrong, wrong, wrong.
And at that point, because of
1106
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,320
just the way the documentary
went, I just felt so betrayed by
1107
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,480
the Mormon church, by the
leadership.
1108
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,240
I just felt like I've been, it
was just all a lie and, you
1109
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,680
know, it just unraveled.
And then you find out more
1110
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,120
things and you find out more
things and you're just like.
1111
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,760
You go down the rabbit hole.
I can't like.
1112
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,360
And it never ends.
That and yeah, I, I just, I
1113
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:15,640
couldn't do what my mom told me
to do when I came to her as a
1114
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,920
teenager.
You know there was no box big
1115
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,120
enough to hold that.
The shelf was broken.
1116
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:22,600
The shelf was broken.
Fix it.
1117
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,480
And I'm also in now this country
that has this race element that
1118
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:31,400
I'd never before experienced.
So I'm like, OK, like this box
1119
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,840
cannot is there's not a size of
a box for that.
1120
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,680
And that was it.
Did it bring back those feelings
1121
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,120
you had from when you were a
teenager about the blacks and
1122
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,600
the priesthood in 1978?
OK, so that sort of came rushing
1123
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,000
back as well.
Yep.
1124
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,120
And so here I was.
I'm like Oh my goodness, I have
1125
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,120
to tell my ex Bishop husband
that I don't want to go to this
1126
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,000
church anymore.
And you know, my kids at
1127
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,120
different stages, we're very
into it.
1128
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,640
My kids are hilarious.
Like one of them used to like
1129
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,280
change the time and the clock to
try to make us miss church and
1130
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,720
stuff.
So there there was.
1131
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:09,040
This I think I can guess which
one.
1132
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,800
You would be right and her
beautiful.
1133
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,680
We sold.
And so we also, my children
1134
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,280
reminded me of this the other
day because I was telling them
1135
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,520
this was our episode.
And they said, you have to
1136
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:27,880
mention that like Starbucks Chai
fraps were was the gateway drug
1137
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,840
like to getting outside of the
church.
1138
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,200
And they remembered this
incident then where we've gone
1139
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,160
to the drive through, which by
the way, I would never ever
1140
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,560
purchase a Starbucks in the
current climate.
1141
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:42,280
That's fair, but these were
different times.
1142
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:43,480
Different times.
Not judging.
1143
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,960
Yes.
So we went through the drive
1144
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,080
through and we had eye contact
with an older couple in the ward
1145
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:53,960
who were sitting outside having
a cup of coffee and we had Chai
1146
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:59,520
fraps which we were kind of felt
guilty but in an exciting way
1147
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,920
about so.
Those don't have coffee in them
1148
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,080
though, do they?
Or do they?
1149
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,000
No, but it was tea.
Black tea.
1150
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,080
Oh, that's right, the tea.
You can't do the tea either.
1151
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:14,640
So yeah.
And weirdly, my husband at the
1152
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,840
time was kind of on board.
Too.
1153
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,240
Oh, interesting.
So you had this conversation
1154
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,880
with him and it it sounds like
it went.
1155
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,120
Pretty well, yeah.
And it wasn't even like a
1156
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,600
decisive, I have sit down and
have something to tell you.
1157
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,320
I sort of started putting little
things right there.
1158
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,680
Okay, did you know about this?
Tested the waters a little bit,
1159
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:34,920
did you?
Know about that.
1160
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:40,400
And so it just sort of was this
slow evolution, and then we
1161
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,160
actually left the neighborhood
and moved to Salt Lake, which
1162
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,440
made things hell of a lot.
Easier, I bet you didn't get any
1163
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,440
anonymous letters for putting an
Obama sign in your yard there.
1164
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,240
Did not get any anonymous
letters and they they find us
1165
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,640
because they're good at that.
But like 2 house moves later, I
1166
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:04,160
think the trail was broken.
So yeah, my kids never had a
1167
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,120
desire to go back.
In fact, the complete opposite.
1168
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,040
I've been divorced for 10 years
now.
1169
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,760
I but the my ex-husband is still
8.
1170
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:18,280
Everybody is 8.
So it yeah, it was very
1171
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,920
interesting.
I moved to Mormon headquarters
1172
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,560
and left the church.
Yep.
1173
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,360
I can relate.
I can too remember.
1174
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,880
Yeah, because the blindfold
comes off, you know.
1175
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,840
And you just see it close up,
right?
1176
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,880
And there's no hiding it
anymore, right?
1177
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,280
That's not like sort of the
excuses and the special pleading
1178
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,160
and then, oh, that's not really
what the church teaches.
1179
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,800
When you come to the epicenter
and you realize, oh, not only is
1180
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,800
that what they teach, but
they're all in on it.
1181
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:53,320
Yeah, and I mean even just being
from another country in Devas
1182
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,120
kind tea was enough to have you
not be accepted even though you
1183
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,240
were within the tribe, so to
speak.
1184
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:01,800
You know, really interesting to
me.
1185
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,560
I actually would have thought
the opposite.
1186
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,160
But I mean, given that you are,
you know, white and from
1187
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,680
Ireland, I imagine it would be
quite different if you'd been
1188
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,320
like, you know, brown and from
Chile or something like, yeah,
1189
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:13,760
right.
But I would have thought they
1190
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,760
would have liked that and found
it like kind of cute and exotic
1191
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:19,920
but in a non threatening way.
But it sounds like that wasn't
1192
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:21,520
the case.
Well, you raise a good point,
1193
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:25,840
right, because there's there is
privilege of being a white
1194
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,520
European immigrant where half
people's grannies come from,
1195
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:31,200
right?
And Oh my God, you're from
1196
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:32,080
Ireland.
You know I.
1197
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:33,480
Love their Irish ancestry.
Yeah.
1198
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,200
But it wasn't.
It wasn't so much that way.
1199
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:41,240
You received those platitudes
for sure, but then it's like,
1200
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:45,760
but ultimately you're different.
And my poor little baby child
1201
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,200
who was in fifth grade, that's
such a vulnerable age.
1202
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:53,960
And she went to school one day
and somebody had treats for the
1203
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,200
birthday, you know, like you do,
you bring in the treats.
1204
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,760
She was not like to have any of
the treats.
1205
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,640
And the girl came up and she
said, honey, that might be how
1206
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,040
you do things in Ireland, but
that's not how we do it here.
1207
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,480
About something that she had
done in her school work or
1208
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,200
something, you know.
And so there there was a lot of
1209
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,040
that.
So even your kids were getting
1210
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,200
other.
Yes, yeah, that's terrible.
1211
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,960
And so, you know, it's not to go
like, wow, wow per us, but
1212
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,800
because, you know, I know that
people go through a lot worse.
1213
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:24,520
Oh, that's not what I'm trying
to say.
1214
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,320
I just thought, you know, people
would have found, like you said,
1215
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,000
that kind of cute and fun and
they would have glommed onto
1216
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,040
you, Yeah, instead of rejecting
you.
1217
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,600
But.
Yeah, I mean mostly what I heard
1218
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:42,800
is I got called a a European
socialist a lot and it was just
1219
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,080
so confusing and bizarre to me
honestly.
1220
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,880
Like it just, it just was so
bizarre.
1221
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,600
And I think seeing it on an
organizational level and the way
1222
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:56,480
that sort of the church
infiltrates state and government
1223
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:02,320
and I didn't any longer want to
be the group that was the source
1224
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,480
of harm to other people.
And I think that's what tipped
1225
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,560
me out.
And then I started to learn
1226
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:13,040
about doctrine stuff and the
other questionable right things
1227
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,760
and finding out to bite.
Oh, Joseph Smith did polygamy
1228
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:17,040
too.
What I and?
1229
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,600
You know, with 14 year olds.
Yes, and you know, so it's like
1230
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,560
it just sort of unravels in your
there's just this like a point
1231
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,680
where you can't you like I
couldn't, I couldn't go back in
1232
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:29,040
good conscience.
I mean, it sounds like even Prop
1233
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,720
8IN and of itself was a bright
line for you.
1234
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,840
Yeah.
And I, I really admire that
1235
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,640
about you.
You have a very strong sense of
1236
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,000
what's right and what's wrong
and what is harmful to people.
1237
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,280
And I just, I'm in awe of you
all the time.
1238
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:44,960
I love you.
Thank you.
1239
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,440
I just, I love people I know,
like I genuinely just love
1240
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,480
people.
I'm fascinated by their stories.
1241
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:54,800
I love them.
I think even though there's a
1242
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,200
lot of really shitty humans
right now, we haven't really
1243
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,680
swore a lot today.
I feel like I just have to say
1244
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,040
like shit or fuck or something
just to.
1245
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,880
Bounce.
Watch out the next episode.
1246
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,760
We're going to be on a rebound.
This this was the more serious
1247
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,880
issue.
But yeah, like, I just, I I
1248
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:13,960
don't want to be part of that
group.
1249
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,760
That would make people feel
shitty just because of their
1250
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,520
identity or who they love.
I just, yeah, I don't get it.
1251
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,560
I just don't.
It just, it's just, yeah.
1252
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:26,680
You're a good soul.
You're one of the best people I
1253
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,360
know.
Thank you.
1254
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,640
I'm all like emotional now.
I'm like.
1255
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,760
No.
But I just, I just, I don't
1256
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,760
know, I like people and I just,
there was just too much harm.
1257
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,080
I could not get past the harm.
And that's.
1258
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:42,520
So you were just took?
Me out.
1259
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,920
I was done.
And then I saw all the other
1260
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,400
stuff that I honestly hadn't
really concerned myself much
1261
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,000
with.
Like I say, my experience, the
1262
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,640
Mormon church, there wasn't a
lot of talk about the big man
1263
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,760
upstairs or God.
Sorry.
1264
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,440
It's like a very Irish way of
referring to deity.
1265
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:01,640
I don't mean it in a
disrespectful way, a very loving
1266
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,640
way.
I'm I am an agnostic right now,
1267
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,840
so you know, but I understand
why people could believe and
1268
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,560
want to believe and it feel very
nice and I respect that,
1269
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:14,640
whatever the religion.
But yeah, I just, it was so
1270
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:19,360
incongruent for me that if this
God person really did live, I,
1271
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,840
he, he was like kind of mean.
And yeah, I didn't like, even
1272
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,920
though I feel like there's a
bolt of lightning will strike me
1273
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:28,800
for saying that.
And I'm not saying God is mean.
1274
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:32,160
I'm saying the version of God I
was given was mean.
1275
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:36,200
And so if they do exist, not to
get into theological discussion
1276
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:43,240
here, they would be like my dad
who's nice and loves me and
1277
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,160
wants to protect me and.
And wouldn't break up families
1278
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:49,240
that already existed.
No, yeah.
1279
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:50,960
And he loves my siblings just
the same.
1280
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:52,560
And the community.
And yeah.
1281
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,920
So that's, that's my exit story.
Wow.
1282
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,840
That's an amazing story.
I think that is pretty unique as
1283
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,240
ex Mormons go.
I feel like mine is more
1284
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,480
run-of-the-mill.
But you know, being from Ireland
1285
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,560
and growing up in that situation
and then coming to America,
1286
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,840
like, wow, that was that was a
ride.
1287
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:15,880
And I knew some of that, but not
all of it.
1288
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:20,359
That was really, really
interesting to listen to and I'm
1289
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:24,279
so glad you shared it with us.
Thank you I I'm I'm having lots
1290
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:27,960
of feelings.
Like, good for sharing, little
1291
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:32,080
melancholy, even.
Some of the shame actually still
1292
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:33,600
does come back.
I bet.
1293
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,160
You know, that was a little over
a decade ago and.
1294
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:38,560
Yeah.
I mean, that's pretty strongly
1295
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,760
ingrained.
So of course it makes sense you
1296
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,960
would still have some of that.
And I do, and I know that even
1297
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,680
if some Mormon people that still
know me from home will have
1298
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:49,640
apoplexy when they hear me say
this.
1299
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,279
But you know, I say with
confidence now that I am
1300
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,000
grateful to to no longer be a
member of the church.
1301
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,920
And again, that's no shade.
I, I walked this morning with a
1302
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:01,520
a dear friend that's committed
member.
1303
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,600
And I love her and respect her.
She loves and respects me.
1304
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:08,279
Cool, because I think often when
you leave, you're slated as this
1305
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:10,359
bad person that wants to talk
shit on the church.
1306
01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:13,240
And but I just, it's, it's not
for me.
1307
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:18,840
And I'm, I'm relieved and I am
so grateful that my, my kids
1308
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,359
aren't in the church.
I'm so grateful and I'm so sorry
1309
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:25,720
to them for the more negative
programming.
1310
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,520
I, I put in their head.
We actually do have a picture on
1311
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,640
our fridge right now for fun
where it's my oldest to holding
1312
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,479
a contract that says I will
never swear, I will never drink,
1313
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,800
I will never take drugs.
And and so we, we put it up
1314
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,200
there to, to be funny, not to
minimize any of their religious
1315
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,920
traumas that they have, but we
do have a wee giggle over that
1316
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:50,520
one.
But I'm just so glad they have
1317
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:56,120
the freedom to love who they
want to love, to experience life
1318
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,120
in all the beautiful, rich,
incredible ways that you're led
1319
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:02,800
to believe are evil and
terrible.
1320
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:04,600
The world is not evil and
terrible.
1321
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,360
It is.
Well, it is, but it's also not
1322
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,760
in the way, not in the Mormon
way that you're told,
1323
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,680
unfortunately, because they
actually don't highlight the
1324
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,680
really evil parts.
They present them as good.
1325
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:24,080
So, you know, if anybody is in
that in between space, it's it's
1326
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,880
beautiful on the other side.
Yeah, it really is.
1327
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,880
Yep, it really is.
And I'm sure you feel like your
1328
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,480
relationship with your children
is much better than it would
1329
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:38,040
have been had you stayed.
Your kids are amazing little
1330
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,320
humans.
You've raised them wonderfully.
1331
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:42,560
Thank you.
So I think that, you know, if
1332
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:46,520
you have any guilt remaining,
like you kind of, it sounds like
1333
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,400
you kind of do.
Maybe that's something to try
1334
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:50,840
and release back into the
universe.
1335
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:51,880
I know it's hard.
Yeah.
1336
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:54,240
But maybe let it go.
Yeah, if I can.
1337
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,200
Yes, working on it.
Working on it.
1338
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,120
So.
We're all works in progress.
1339
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,720
We are indeed my friend, but
thank you for creating a space
1340
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,800
and the questions and and
letting me go on my tangents
1341
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,560
and.
Now, it was an honor to listen
1342
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:09,960
to your story.
Thank you so much.
1343
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,560
You're we, Jim.
All right, well, friends,
1344
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,200
listeners, if you have any
comments, please share them.
1345
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,520
We hope you enjoyed this.
Don't worry, we will be back to
1346
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:22,800
our salty salty next time.
We'll catch you then.
1347
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:24,200
Goodbye.
See you then.
1348
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:24,760
Bye.