Dating: The Game Where We're All Losers

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Hello everybody, and welcome
back to the Salty Hose.

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This is Claire.
This is Mel.

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And together we are.
The salty hose.

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Coming at you again, deep from
behind.

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Because we know Mel likes that
noy.

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Love it deep from behind.
Deep from behind the Zion

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curtain.
So how are you today, Mel?

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How's your week been?
Oh, I'm doing OK.

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You know, it's one of those kind
of cold winter days where I

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can't wait to get back to
summer.

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Flip flops, shorts, tank tops,
warmth.

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This air could be better.
It could be way.

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Better like, please let the snow
come, right?

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Yes.
For those of you outside Utah,

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we're having an unusually just
well, actually, there's just

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literally no snow.
There's no snow and I don't know

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if this is unusual or if this is
going to be our new normal with

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climate change.
Yeah, I guess it's all Canada's

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fault though, right?
Sure, how?

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I guess this year that's what
they're it's like to do with

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high pressure from Canada or
something, which is why we're

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not getting the snow.
Oh, those Canadians.

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Those bloody Canadians.
I feel like bursting into song

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from the original South Park
movie.

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Do you remember that?
Blame Canada.

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Blame Canada.
Love it.

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That's, Yeah, all their fault,
yeah.

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How was your week?
I am trying to be really

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intentional to not go Oh my God,
it was crazy because I realized

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that I do say that every week.
But it's true every week.

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Well, it is, but I'm trying to
like shift my focus And, you

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know, I did have, as you know,
I'm, I'm in some classes and

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there was an aspect of the class
this week that was just so

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enraging and also fascinating.
Oh, tell me more.

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Well, it was basically about
Badgers.

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Badgers.
Badgers like the animals.

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Like the animals.
So like, bear in mind this is a

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poetry class.
Well, it's actually a literary

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literary traditions class, if
I'm getting technical.

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But we were discussing the
poetry of yet another Ye Olde

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time white English poet.
Such diversity.

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That's the only kind though,
right?

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Oh, it's the only ones that are
good.

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Oh, I'm sorry, yes.
That's right.

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I mean, other ones exist,
Melissa, but clearly, clearly

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they're not good.
Yeah.

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So Badgers.
We got into this badger

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discussion specifically about
the the howl of a badger.

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Do Badgers howl?
Badgers howl.

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Interesting.
And was it more of a howl or a

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scream?
And I was just there going,

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sweet baby Jesus.
Literally what?

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Why?
Just how is this happening?

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Like I am here for intellectual
stimulation because, you know,

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I'm not having stimulation of
any other kind.

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So the Berean could do with a
wee bit of probing.

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And after 20 minutes I lied that
I had heard a badger signed

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because I just wanted it to
stop.

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I love that, yeah.
It's kind of like faking an

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orgasm.
Right.

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Yes, you're like, please just
let it get over.

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Just like.
There you go, I'm.

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All done.
I'm all done with this now.

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Is it?
When you fake an orgasm?

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Is it more of a howl or a
scream?

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Well yeah, I guess it depends on
on who you're with.

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I don't know but when if you
Google a badger howl or scream

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it could sign similar.
Interesting.

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I'm going to have to look that
up now.

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Yeah.
Channel, you're in her badger

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next time you have to fake an
orgasm.

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I hope I never have to fake one
again.

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I hope.
This for you too.

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I hope that nobody has to, but
let's get real.

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That's a whole other podcast
episode though.

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Here we are.
Well, what are we talking about

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today, Claire?
Today we are talking about

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something that's going to signed
like Ridge Beauty, but it's it's

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it's really not.
I have this question, why do men

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hate women?
And I know immediately that like

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the gates of hell would open and
I would be called a Dick

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puncher, but that's actually not
where I want to go with all of

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this today.
I actually want to try to make

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sense of like, you know, there's
just like anybody that's been in

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the apps, there's just like a
weird tension or dare I call it

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animosity.
I don't know what.

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How do you feel in the apps
like?

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Yeah, I think that's right.
I mean, I feel like a lot of the

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BIOS I read, there's some thinly
veiled or sometimes not even

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veiled at all contempt for men
towards women.

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Now, I do kind of wanna mention
that we're coming at this from

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the female point of view.
We're both women.

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And as I understand it from some
of my male friends that are on

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the apps, they feel something
similar, right?

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It feels hard to them too.
Maybe they feel some contempt

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coming their way.
So I do want to acknowledge

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that.
But we're going to speak from

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our own perspective since I
mean, really, that's all we can

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do, right?
That's all we have.

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But I love that you mentioned
that because I think that is

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literally from the gecko.
The point to make is that like,

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who is winning here?
Nobody, nobody.

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We're all losing.
Together.

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We're all losing together and I
think that's, you know, the

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point that we're missing because
it's like you talk to anybody

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and everybody's ex-husband or ex
partner is a narcissist, right?

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When you're talking about the
men, right, And everybody's

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ex-wife or ex partner is a
raging bitch like and that

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can't.
Statistically be true, it can't.

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It just like can't be true.
Not all men are narcissists and

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not all women are bitches.
It cannot be correct.

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It cannot be correct so.
What's happening?

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Well like had tip to the
situations that are because you

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know those do happen.
And actually funny story, a

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friend and a colleague of mine
was working in another setting

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and heard my ex husband's
girlfriend at the time talking

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about this horrendous ex-wife.
Oh no, they were talking about

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you.
Talking about me, but this, this

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person was a real 1.
You know, you got those friends

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that are just like a real 1.
Yep.

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And she walked over and she
goes, excuse me, but I need to

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like, correct this conversation.
Little interjection.

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It was so.
Cute and she was she was like, I

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have known Claire for over 10
years and you know, she said

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lovely things and she is like,
that is not the same person

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you're describing.
I had never met this woman.

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So obviously she was going on
the descriptions of me that she

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had heard.
Sure, which, you know, is is

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totally fine question mark.
I don't know ish ish, but it

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brings us back to this point
like the way we take our

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stories.
I'm certainly guilty of it.

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I think if I was being truthful
and doing a deep dive, you know,

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I mean, there's, there's been
some egregious situations, but.

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I was going to say, I mean, do I
need to bring up the shitty

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pants again?
Yeah, well, that will live

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forever.
So yeah, that was not a good

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situation.
But how did we get here?

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How did we get here?
So a lot of things, it's

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actually a lot of things that
put together make a lot of

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sense.
We're gonna start with a

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scientific term here.
So the accumulation of

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differences.
I believe that's a sciency term

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too.
Mel, you're the scientist.

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Accumulation of differences.
OK, I think I need a little bit

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more clarity on that term.
So if we think about biological

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evolution, we are talking about
the accumulation of differences

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over time.
That's certainly one way you

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could define evolution.
It's a good way to define

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evolution, yeah, But I suspect
we're talking here more about a

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cultural evolution than a
biological evolution, although

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obviously that's going to come
into play when we're talking

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about sex and gender and gender
roles.

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So I want to talk about this
amazing book that I can't

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believe I've never read before,
that just made me think about

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all of this and it came together
like this.

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Amazing possible solution to
your question.

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What do we do about all of this?
So it's called Caliban and the

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Witch.
I love the title.

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I've not read it, so you're
going to have to break it down

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for me.
Well, it's funny, I originally

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thought it was like an older
book, but I I guess it came out

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in like 2004.
So it's by Sylvia Frederici.

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Frederici Frederici.
I don't know.

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Italian is not my strong suit.
Same.

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So miss, Miss Sylvia is it
doctor?

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Sylvia.
I is it, I don't know.

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I don't know.
But let's just call her Doctor

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Sylvia.
She deserves it, honestly, after

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writing this book because it was
really incredible.

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So she brought together a ton of
sort of social ills, control,

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economic, all of these things to
kind of explain why we're in

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this honestly shitty dating
situation right now.

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I love it.
We're getting all academic on

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this problem.
We're.

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Getting academic on the problem
of dating in 2025 in Utah

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specifically.
So she goes all the way back to

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like the 4th century, Yeah.
Like we're, we're going, we're

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going far back today.
And when Christianity became

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like sort of a formal religion
and the dudes in Christianity,

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we're kind of scared of the
ladies.

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So yeah, you, you might have
seen a little story we posted

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this week that talked about one
of the prophets.

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I don't know if he's the current
one, the new one.

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I can't keep track.
I have completely lost track.

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I don't really follow it at all.
That kind of makes me happy.

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Though I know, right?
Yeah, you're just like, I don't

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know, because I don't.
Care, blissfully unaware.

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Yeah, well, he had made the
point that women, women getting

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educated, which he said he he
did agree with, but that it was

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frightening men, direct quote,
frightening men.

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Oh my God, yes.
But this is actually, this isn't

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a new idea.
So back in this the 4th century

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with the rise of Christianity or
you know, the sort of

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solidifying it as a religious
perspective.

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So we're kind of talking like
Constantine here, right, When he

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adopted Christianity, moved the
capital from Rome to

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Constantinople, Yes.
Is that kind of the time frame

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we're in?
Yeah, just like people were

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getting on board with this idea.
It's becoming a state religion.

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In other words, yeah, like a
recognizable, you are a

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Christian kind of a situation.
So the the men's was frightened

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of the women's even back then
all the way back to the 4th

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century.
And they particularly when it

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came to desire and sexuality.
Oh yeah.

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So, yeah, frightening.
We have such power.

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So they were mostly afraid of
their own feelings.

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OK, So their own feelings of
desire.

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And instead of addressing that,
they were like these lady people

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are making us feel weird.
So something like needs to be

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done about it.
Does that sound familiar?

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I mean, yes, it does sound kind
of familiar.

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You know, so think about the
what is she?

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What was she wearing?
You know all of that kind of.

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Oh, so like pushing
responsibility onto women for

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the sexual urges that they might
be having?

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Exactly.
OK, so this is where it kind of

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started, although it was
followed by a period where

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actually sex work and
prostitution was was normalized

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and actually widely accepted.
But this is where and anybody

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who's been in the Mormon church,
and this Mel and I have talked

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about before, the shame around
sexuality started at this point.

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OK, so this is where we can
trace it back to.

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So if tracing things back to the
roots helps, I don't.

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I mean, I think a historical
perspective is always good,

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right?
We didn't just arrive like in

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this vacuum, right?
We stepped into thousands of

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years of cultural evolution.
So I think it makes sense to

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explore some of these strands.
Yeah.

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00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:28,160
And I love the word evolution
here because men and women, and

230
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:33,480
obviously we're speaking very
heteronormatively, Yeah.

231
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,160
And cisgendered fashion here.
But there really is a historical

232
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,720
basis for why we feel the way we
do.

233
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,320
Probably abide each other.
So we've got this little seed

234
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,960
planted, and then we move
through a lot of centuries.

235
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,800
And so really everything that
happened before the 16th century

236
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,920
and actually things were, were
quite good from a gender

237
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,600
perspective.
There was not the same kind of

238
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,520
feeling of defensiveness or, you
know, pitted against each other.

239
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,400
Like there was no need for, say,
a feminist movement.

240
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:12,760
At this point.
Because people were just

241
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,520
chilling.
And part of that sort of pre

242
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,440
feudal times was the subsistence
economy.

243
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,480
OK, right.
So like people just subsisted.

244
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,880
So in other words, maybe we
didn't have time for some of

245
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,760
this conflict because we were
just focused on survival.

246
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,920
Well, and also yes, and Labour
had not been commodified at that

247
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,160
point.
Interesting.

248
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,200
So people were like growing
their wee vegetables reason

249
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,480
their cars or whatever to go for
meat or rabbits, whatever people

250
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,240
are they did.
I don't know really what people

251
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,880
at between the the 3rd and the
16th century, but you know, like

252
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,000
you built your home with your
hands and you didn't like go get

253
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,240
a custom home builder, you know
so.

254
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,640
OK, so there's less division of
Labor, you're saying?

255
00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,320
Yes, in a societal way, but also
maybe in a household as well.

256
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,680
Yes.
So the household, the family,

257
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,720
whatever, you know, this little
unit was all about were, you

258
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,240
know, how do we subsist like
together and make sure

259
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,080
everybody's fed, make sure
everybody's warm when they need

260
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,040
to be warm, everybody is taken
care of.

261
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,960
Because obviously, like today,
that's the majority of people,

262
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,240
right?
You had the rulers and the

263
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,800
people with power and influence,
money, all that.

264
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,120
But you know, that was how most
people lived, right?

265
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,400
So people were honestly like
pretty chill.

266
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,800
And they just, I'm not saying it
was like, you know, let's make

267
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,360
Merck a great again by going
back to the third, the 4th

268
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,720
century.
You know, I don't think I want

269
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,040
to go back to a time without
birth control or modern medicine

270
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,080
or vaccines or clean water
because, you know, I, I hear

271
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,120
what you're saying about gender
roles, but we do want to be

272
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,960
careful about romanticizing the
past.

273
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,400
Oh hell yeah.
I mean, and there were people

274
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,680
like Club to Death with axes and
witches, which we'll we'll get

275
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:00,560
into.
That was a wee bit.

276
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,440
But right, And Europe was not a
peaceful sort of place, no

277
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,680
really at any time in history.
Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of

278
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,080
stuff going on.
Yeah, some of the wars that you

279
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,120
read about in sort of the middle
of of Europe, like the 30 Years

280
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,160
War in places that depleted the
population up to 50%.

281
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,560
Oh yeah.
So it wasn't like all sunshine

282
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,200
and roses.
That's not what we're saying,

283
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,080
fam.
Absolutely not.

284
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,680
Yes.
We are not advocating for a

285
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,000
return to.
Digital European values?

286
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,480
No, thank you.
We could like start a political

287
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,240
party and go next level.
We'd be like we would like to

288
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,680
make a return to 10th century
Europe.

289
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,920
I mean, I'd be dead of sepsis.
So that's, yeah, life expectancy

290
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,000
was probably what, like 40 then
or something?

291
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,360
I don't.
Know, I mean, that's actually

292
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,360
kind of an interesting, fun
question, right?

293
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,480
So the life expectancy on
average was quite a bit lower.

294
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,120
Yeah.
But it, it wasn't like some

295
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,000
people have the idea that like
the average was the time people

296
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,160
lived.
So they're like, Oh yeah,

297
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,120
everybody died in their 30s.
But actually that's not the case

298
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,680
because you're averaging things
together.

299
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,240
There was a really high rate of
infant and juvenile mortality,

300
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,800
as well as things like death and
childbirth.

301
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,360
But if you lived through those
things, you were probably fairly

302
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,760
likely to live to a decent age.
6070 even I think was not really

303
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,160
uncommon.
Will you be robust, right?

304
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,720
Like it's like survival of the
fittest and you made it.

305
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,360
Well, yeah, I mean, we want to
be careful with that term, but

306
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,040
sure, yes.
You're like, no, no, don't go

307
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,160
there, don't go there.
So yeah, that's not saying it

308
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,320
was perfect.
There was very, very bad things.

309
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,880
But in terms of gender, things
were just like, very, very

310
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,600
different.
Because I think sometimes, you

311
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,920
know, we like to put it into the
terms of, well, it's always been

312
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,520
like this, like these are
natural, you know, kind of

313
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,680
roles.
And that's just not accurate, no

314
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:53,880
matter what you think.
About it.

315
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:55,960
I hate that so much.
I really do.

316
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,680
You hear this a lot today, like
and you hear it not just in the

317
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,040
Mormon church, but like in
society in general.

318
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,000
People are like, Oh well, I'm
just a man.

319
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,480
That's my nature.
I can't control myself because

320
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,920
my sexuality is so much more
powerful than yours.

321
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,760
Like you wouldn't understand my
sexual urges as a man are so

322
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,200
much more powerful than ours.
But, you know, but if you rewind

323
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,079
1000 or 2000 years, actually
everyone understood the

324
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,240
opposite.
Everyone thought women were the

325
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,400
highly sexualized, wanton, you
know, gender that could not keep

326
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,600
their primal urges under
control.

327
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,280
Everybody knew it.
Women were just more sexual than

328
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:33,720
men.
Whereas today everybody just

329
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,600
knows that men are more sexual
than women.

330
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,480
Yeah.
And both of these things are

331
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,720
actually wrong.
Yeah, you're like, this is not

332
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:41,640
accurate.
No.

333
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,440
And again, who is winning here?
We're all losing.

334
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:46,760
We're all losing.
Yeah.

335
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,360
And like, this is the point is
like, it's it's almost like

336
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,840
colonialism in a way, right?
Like classic colonialism.

337
00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,200
As you go to a peaceful spot,
you divide the community, create

338
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,720
arbitrary groups or
classifications that aren't even

339
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,600
there.
And then people start to fight

340
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,280
each other.
And the colonizer just sits back

341
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,200
and goes ha, ha, ha.
And I kind of feel like that

342
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,320
between men and women.
And I were at this terrible like

343
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,360
stage of dating because the
enemy is each other.

344
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,080
Yeah, or maybe you take, you
know, conflict that's already

345
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,920
there and exacerbate it, right?
Throw fuel on the fire.

346
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,120
That's another like thing right
out of the playbook.

347
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,000
Yeah.
All right.

348
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,280
So to summarize this book, tell
me, tell me more.

349
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,760
What's the central thesis here?
So that is actually kind of a

350
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,920
difficult question, especially
with somebody with the brain

351
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,000
like mine, because there is so
much in this book.

352
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,760
Everybody has to read this book.
We should have a Salty Hose book

353
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,120
group.
It's it's a short read.

354
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,760
I think it's just a little over
200 pages.

355
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:50,960
But honestly it covers
everything from a great span of

356
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,600
centuries and also economics.
There's some Marxism in there,

357
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,400
even though a lot of this stuff
predates Marxism as we

358
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,960
understand it.
But to give you like the Cliff

359
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,360
Notes version.
So we start off in the 4th

360
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:08,960
century talking about religion,
we move through feudalism, and

361
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,320
then you have this transition
from feudalism to capitalism,

362
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,440
and then you get the
intersection of patriarchy and

363
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,680
how patriarchy was really needed
in order to make capitalism

364
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,480
work.
So we've gone from that overly

365
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:30,320
ideal, idealized by myself like
little setup of gender in terms

366
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,640
of men and women subsistence
economy.

367
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,520
So men, men and women work
together probably in equal among

368
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,680
some most occupations, not
occupations, obviously not the

369
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,600
way that we understand it.
Money was a very different

370
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,000
concept back then.
Of course, it did exist, but not

371
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,680
in the way of, you know, your
little direct deposit right now

372
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,800
for all your labor and then the
way we exchange money.

373
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,040
But but it did exist.
But men and women were in things

374
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,880
called guilds.
Oh yes, the guilds.

375
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,280
The guilds and so, you know,
think of that as like your

376
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,000
little professional body
equivalent today.

377
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,080
And this is sort of high society
was organized and women

378
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,880
dominated in the medical fields
in particular.

379
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,280
And that was true right up until
the 16th century.

380
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,280
And actually, there was birth
control.

381
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,720
But you believe.
Oh, I believe it.

382
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,720
Yeah, I just.
You're like, it was not

383
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,560
effective.
I mean, not as effective, yeah.

384
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,360
But it was like herbs and, you
know, they'd make little

385
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,480
suppositories and all kinds of
concoctions out of it to, you

386
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,200
know, make your period come
quickly or even, you know, to

387
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,800
force a miscarriage, all those
kinds of little tricks.

388
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,240
But because obviously people had
to learn those back in the day.

389
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,520
And then we come into the
plantation era and this is where

390
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,400
things really started to change
to how we recognize them today.

391
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,640
So we were very communal back
then.

392
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,200
We had lots of common space.
Think of it like, have you ever

393
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,840
heard the idea that the word
like?

394
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,240
Gossip is bad.
Oh yeah, I love gossip though.

395
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,760
It's it's actually a good thing.
It's one of those things that's

396
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,880
like, historically being
demonized.

397
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,440
But that's how people lived,
right?

398
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,680
They got together, they talked,
they shared.

399
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,280
But now it's seen as, like,
gossipy, you know, a bad thing.

400
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,240
Is it because the term's been
feminized?

401
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:33,840
Is it a bad thing?
That's what it is that's

402
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,640
associated with women.
It's like slut, right, whore,

403
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,120
all the the terms that you have
to preface with man if you want

404
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,520
to relate it to a man.
I mean, in my personal

405
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,800
experience, men like to gossip
just as much as women.

406
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,000
Yes, 100%.
Have we seen the Real Housewife

407
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,480
husbands?
Like yeah, they love a good to

408
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,440
be gossip too.
So things like that.

409
00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:02,240
Or for example, if you hear when
you're like discussing aid, aid.

410
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,000
I feel like I'm very Irish there
aid.

411
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,520
I love it when you sound Irish.
And it's really funny to see

412
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,760
actually how the subtitles
interpret it, but I digress.

413
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,840
So when you look at Eid, say,
for example, in a developing

414
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,880
nation, a lot of times people
will come in and be like, Oh my

415
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,200
goodness, look, the women have
to walk 2 hours a day to get

416
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,640
water.
Like let's fix that.

417
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,680
Let's put water in the village.
A lot of times people don't like

418
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,720
it because that's actually their
time together.

419
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,000
Oh, to talk, to walk together,
to be away.

420
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,800
And so it's kind of a a case of,
you know, Western ideology

421
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,200
going, we know what's good for
you.

422
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,320
Let's isolate you and make it
easy to get your water so that

423
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,760
you don't like talk to your
friends and your people and get

424
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,120
that sense of community anymore.
I'm not suggesting that's a

425
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,160
conscious idea when you're
putting in water in a village to

426
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,480
stop The Walking, but it's all
part of going back to the 16th

427
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,200
century idea of enclosure.
So enclosure was basically like

428
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,760
people lived on the land
together and they farmed and

429
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,080
they did all the things.
And then the English who are

430
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,040
kind of responsible for all the
major fuck ups in the world.

431
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,040
Well, not all of them.
I mean, to be fair, we've taken

432
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,440
that torch and carried it
forward.

433
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,160
That is true, but I mean, where
did a lot of the people from

434
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,760
here come from?
So the Puritans brought it with

435
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,000
them and I am being a little
rude just because of marriage.

436
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,280
And we have a history with
English, you did say.

437
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,960
I think that's fair comment.
So yeah, just.

438
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,360
Kidding, my brother-in-law is
actually English and I adore him

439
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,240
so he's wonderful.
We always tell him you're not

440
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,680
great collectively, but
individually we like you.

441
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,320
So So yeah, the English brought
about this idea of enclosure.

442
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,400
So basically equate it to, you
know, how everybody is property

443
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,920
lines 9 and fences and walls.
That was from the 16th century.

444
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,760
People were a lot more communal,
wasn't really like a bindry

445
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,680
thing.
And so we separated into these

446
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,040
little enclosures, and as a
result, we became quite isolated

447
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:14,720
back then in the 16th century.
So also at this time, we're

448
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:20,720
moving away from feudalism to
capitalism, and all of these

449
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,040
factors needed to come together
in order to make it work.

450
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,840
So we talked earlier about like,
the family unit and its purpose,

451
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,840
right?
So for subsistence, it was like

452
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,240
everybody got stuck in, grew the
food, built the house, did all

453
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,280
the things, annoyed the family
unit is coming together as

454
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,800
basically the ability to feed
industrialization and

455
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,160
capitalism.
You're raising the workforce,

456
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,440
right?
So this is this is where we have

457
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,400
come to at this point.
So a lot of really interesting

458
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,720
things start to happen here in
terms of gender and the division

459
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,400
of Labor.
And put in really simple terms,

460
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,520
it's just the idea that night
labor becomes commodified, so

461
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,760
the dudes need to go out to work
and the little ladies need to

462
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,560
stay home.
That makes sense.

463
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,440
And they need to stay home
because of course, we're the

464
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,320
ones that give birth to babies.
Yes, Right.

465
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,600
So it's more difficult.
Is that the idea, at least on a

466
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,080
continuous basis, for us to be?
I mean, it's, it's hard to go

467
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,360
work in a factory 16 hours a day
if you're nursing a baby.

468
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,000
Is that?
It's very difficult.

469
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,720
That's that's like the
compassionate view.

470
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,280
OK, I think.
All right, interesting.

471
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:42,280
It has more to do as well with
the idea that if you are

472
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,080
laboring all day, which hello
would be marvelous, that you

473
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,960
come home to a meal, that you
come home to things taken care

474
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,800
of, that you don't have to do
any work like you did in the

475
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,640
subsistence economy.
So you've gone and done your

476
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,360
paid work and you get to come
home and relax night and

477
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,520
everything is taken care of.
I mean, you and I have single

478
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,120
mom.
Did we?

479
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,600
We go, we work long hours and
wouldn't it be lovely to come

480
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,520
home to like your dinner on the
table?

481
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,320
Sure.
And a clean house just magically

482
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,760
cleaned because I come home on a
Friday and I'm like, holy shit,

483
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,200
what happened?
And it's just because you're

484
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,200
tired, right?
So you maybe don't do the dishes

485
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,760
every day and then they build up
or, you know, that kind of

486
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,560
thing.
So it women became support for

487
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,680
capitalism basically at this
point.

488
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,000
And it also accentuated
commodified labor and unpaid

489
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,480
labor.
I see, that makes sense.

490
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,080
So really, you do still have two
people working long hours, but

491
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,840
one is working outside the home
and one is working inside the

492
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:49,960
home?
Exactly.

493
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,440
And arguably, working inside the
home in the 16th century was a

494
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,320
lot more difficult than working
inside the home today.

495
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,280
Oh definitely.
I mean, you had no labor saving

496
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,720
appliances for one thing, right?
Water.

497
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,880
Access to water?
How do you cook?

498
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:10,760
So now that became the women's
issue and the men's went off and

499
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,560
did their work.
Labor became commodified.

500
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,960
And so here we are like that was
like setting the scene for

501
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,320
today.
I mean, actually that sounds bad

502
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,240
for both partners.
It's not good.

503
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,800
Yeah.
Because it's created a

504
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,080
separation.
Right.

505
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,120
But also both forms of Labor,
you know, both someone going out

506
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:33,880
to to work outside the home,
right, For a wage rather than

507
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,800
taking care of their own
homestead or whatever.

508
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,160
That doesn't sound particularly
pleasant.

509
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,000
Working inside the home also
does not sound particularly

510
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,640
pleasant.
You know, back in the day.

511
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,640
Because nobody's like helping
anybody.

512
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,040
Yeah, you're very divided
isolation.

513
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:49,320
Isolation.
Yeah.

514
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,920
So you've got this physical
isolation with the enclosures,

515
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,880
and then you have this isolation
away from your partner,

516
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,040
separation of the value of the
labor.

517
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,000
And I think that that's really
important because commodifying

518
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,640
labor made it valuable.
And I mean, even currently we

519
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,320
don't respect domestic work on
paid domestic labor.

520
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,080
Oh, definitely not.
And who carries like the

521
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,480
majority of it?
Women.

522
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,400
And that is true.
Like I'm talking data points.

523
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,320
It is true of every single
country on earth.

524
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,840
Yeah, and it is true, by the
way, for couples where both

525
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,440
partners work outside the home
for a wage equal hours.

526
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,720
The data is very clear that the
women is still doing most of the

527
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,000
domestic work unpaid the unpaid
labor.

528
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,800
Yeah, and this was really
revealed during COVID, Yeah.

529
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,280
Right.
When everybody suddenly was at

530
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,920
home and both partners were
working and yet children had to

531
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,320
be like, schooled and everything
was happening.

532
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,600
Yes.
Whose job that was?

533
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,440
Yes.
Surprise, surprise.

534
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,360
Not so.
Yeah.

535
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,800
Like, we're not making shit up
here.

536
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,640
And this isn't the Dick punching
session.

537
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,280
This is.
I don't.

538
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,000
I can't wait for the Dick
punching session.

539
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,080
Just kidding.
Yeah, I mean.

540
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,360
Only only if it's consensual.
Yes, then the Dicks will be

541
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,880
punched.
But I mean, you can see how some

542
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,320
of what happened back then leads
to some of that nigh on both

543
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,680
sides, right?
The negative perception because

544
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,200
here's the thing we talked about
like this contempt, almost this

545
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,360
like low key contempt maybe for
women.

546
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,640
And we're not the only ones to
say it.

547
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,520
I see reels all the time about
this on the insta.

548
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,480
Webs.
Yeah, me too.

549
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,120
Yeah, where they're like, why do
men have this contempt for

550
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,480
women?
And I'm sure it doesn't feel

551
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,360
good to men either that they
have these feelings, confusing

552
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,240
feelings towards women, right,
Because they want to have sex

553
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,600
with them, but then they low key
kind of have disdain for them to

554
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,400
grow.
It's like, that's confusing and

555
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,640
not pleasant for anyone.
No.

556
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,720
So at this time as well, the
kind of sex thing came back into

557
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,520
it too.
So for that period I mentioned

558
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:08,400
before, the the sort of the need
for sex was kind of like, OK.

559
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,000
And there was a pretty
legitimized sex industry that

560
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,360
everybody was kind of cool with
at this point.

561
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,800
And with the emergence of
capitalism in the 16th century,

562
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,360
you also saw kind of going back
to the 4th century mindset of,

563
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,520
you know, women are leading the
men astray.

564
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,280
And, you know, we can't be seen
to be doing this.

565
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,240
So taking away a legitimized
sort of sex workforce, if you

566
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,760
want to call it that, then it
made things get weird and it

567
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,680
introduced shame and all of
those great things that we know

568
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,560
now, you know, no one love and
that we're definitely solidified

569
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,800
through our membership in the
Mormon Church of the shame

570
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,320
around sex and desire and.
All of those things, I mean, it

571
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,640
makes sense.
It's a mechanism for control,

572
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,760
yes.
Yep.

573
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,240
And shame particularly, you
know, shame towards women for

574
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,120
having sex with men and shame
for men and having these

575
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,120
desires.
So it kind of got all

576
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,680
clandestine.
I mean, once again, this is bad

577
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,760
for everyone.
Bad for everybody.

578
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,640
Nobody is winning.
And that's what I really want

579
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,560
to, like, highlight here is that
absolutely nobody is winning

580
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,320
here.
So you get this big division

581
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,440
and, you know, women are sort of
pushed into the home.

582
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,680
There's this demonization that
occurs again in order to make

583
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,440
this economic system work.
It couldn't have worked without

584
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,360
it.
And I wanted to share a little

585
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,240
snippet from the book.
Please.

586
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,080
And if anybody's reading it,
it's on page 96.

587
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,720
We'll give you the page
reference.

588
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,120
So all of these things that
we're talking about are all,

589
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,200
like coming together.
And it says women tried to

590
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,520
resist this onslaught, but faced
with the intimidating tactics

591
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,320
male workers used against them,
failed.

592
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,160
Those who dared to work out of
the home, in a public space and

593
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,240
for the market were portrayed as
sexually aggressive shrews or

594
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,160
even as whores and witches.
Yeah, That's kind of aggressive,

595
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,480
right?
Extremely.

596
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,160
Yeah, and it goes on to say,
indeed there is evidence that

597
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,680
the wave of misogyny that by the
late 15th century was mounting

598
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,120
in the European cities,
reflected in the meal obsession

599
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,880
with the battle for the
breeches, breeches, breeches.

600
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,880
And with the character of the
disobedient wife pictured in the

601
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,880
popular literature in the act of
beating her husband or riding on

602
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,400
his back, emanated also from the
self defeating attempt to drive

603
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,160
women from the workplace in the
market.

604
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,280
So who knew?
Wow, great quote.

605
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,320
I mean, and kind of what you're
telling me is all of these

606
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,320
self-described alpha males that
you see on TikTok or on

607
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,600
Instagram is not a new
phenomenon.

608
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,400
It's not and they're actually
deeply affected by the 15th and

609
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,720
15th century, but they don't
know it.

610
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,400
Maybe this is what we should be
bringing up in in therapy.

611
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,960
Like, are you aware that you
were pawns in the setup of the

612
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,560
the system of capitalism and
that's why you hate each other?

613
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,840
But I think it's a pretty
legitimate, solid argument.

614
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,040
Like I just felt like I had lots
of exclamation points going off

615
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,680
in my head when I read this and
it all came together like this,

616
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,120
this puzzle, you know, when
there's, there's things about

617
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,360
bodies in here too.
And what you mentioned earlier

618
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,040
with nobody winning, you don't
win.

619
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,800
When you go out on work all day
and you're exhausted, like your

620
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,880
actual body is exhausted, that's
not winning, no.

621
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,320
And so you don't really have
this autonomy over your body

622
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,880
anymore.
Women certainly didn't hear this

623
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,120
is where the mindset of like, if
something happened to say like a

624
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,400
pregnant woman, that the the
fetus was prioritized over the

625
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,920
life of the woman.
So this has been this started to

626
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,880
emerge.
So again, not a new phenomena

627
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,280
like deep, deep roots.
And I think that sometimes when

628
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,400
we look at social ills or
difficult situations, we asked

629
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,120
the wrong questions and so it
never gets fixed.

630
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:21,760
What questions should we be
asking?

631
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:28,760
Well, I think we we could be
asking who is benefiting like

632
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,480
that could be a good place to
start because nobody, as we said

633
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,199
lots of times my today is
benefiting from the system.

634
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,880
We're all kind of turned against
each other.

635
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:44,280
And so the battle becomes, you
know, for women, if different

636
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:50,199
waves of feminism, obviously the
the current weave, if you will,

637
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,120
actually is for equality between
the sexes, not even for women,

638
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,920
but also advocating for men
because men aren't equal when it

639
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,760
comes to sharing of emotions and
all of those things, right.

640
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,120
So the social, political,
economic equity for the sexes.

641
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,480
So heard a good point there
were, you know, none of these

642
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,200
movements that would be
necessary if all of this hadn't

643
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:22,120
happened back then because it
split us down the line and now

644
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,200
we're punching at each other
instead of how can we fix this

645
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,080
like your question.
That was a great question.

646
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,800
Well, and I think the answer is
someone is benefiting.

647
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,040
So back in the day, you know,
you were talking about the

648
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,400
English and closing things,
someone was benefiting and it

649
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,000
was the land owners, right that
were enclosing what used to be

650
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,760
common spaces.
Today someone is benefiting.

651
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,520
And, you know, I don't know how
you want to describe it.

652
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,000
Like the oligarchs that control
our society.

653
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,720
Yeah, OK.
The billionaires that control

654
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:57,880
our society.
People are benefiting and

655
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,920
becoming enriched on the backs
of this conflict between the

656
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,360
genders and not just genders,
but, you know, conflict between

657
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,960
the races, right.
Conflict between political

658
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,600
parties, if you can set people
at each other where they're

659
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,000
tearing each other apart rather
than stepping back and looking

660
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,720
at the system and who is
actually benefiting from all

661
00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:20,160
this outrage?
Well, it's a great distraction,

662
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,760
right?
It's it's an opiate of the

663
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,880
masses.
That's it in a nutshell, my

664
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,400
friend.
Exactly.

665
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,080
It's it's a distraction, it's a
diversion.

666
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,120
So our questions are typically
like, you know, what's wrong

667
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,680
with the men or how do we make
the men better?

668
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,640
I mean, we've definitely said
that, right?

669
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,800
And.
I mean, I'm not going to stop

670
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,760
asking that.
Question necessarily, we can

671
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,000
still ask it with like deeper
context, right?

672
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,560
You know, and then men are like,
you know, why'd she never get

673
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,880
off my back?
Like, why is she a witch?

674
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,560
And, you know, again, diverting
away from like the bigger issue

675
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,800
in the system we're in, Like
we're all tired arguably too,

676
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,560
from all of these different
roles.

677
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,240
Absolutely.
I'm so tired.

678
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:09,040
Yes, like so tired.
And so, you know, one of one of

679
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,320
the presidents said, I don't
even know who, but it's

680
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,600
something to the effect of like
all the simple problems have

681
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,040
been solved.
And I I so agree with that.

682
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,640
Like I share all of this with
great optimism because I really

683
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,680
do believe and not like fake
positivity.

684
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,960
Like let me do a little jump and
take a picture and be like a

685
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,600
smile.
Like no, like not that kind of

686
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,520
bullshit.
But the idea that I think a lot

687
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,640
of things actually could be
addressed, amended, developed,

688
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,200
bringing us all to a brighter
future because, you know, not to

689
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,720
sign overly idealistic.
The divisive thing is not

690
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,400
working.
It's actually just furthering,

691
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,120
as you mentioned, like they have
different names through

692
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,000
different ages, but basically
the people with the most money

693
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,920
and in control, right, Right.
That division is always been

694
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,000
there and it's always being
served by us, like fighting

695
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,600
amongst each other.
Witches are also interesting

696
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,840
during this time because
something that correlated and

697
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,480
obviously in the title of the
book were witches.

698
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,720
And you know, I think when you
hear like witches or witch hunt,

699
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,520
you think of like the Crucible,
Arthur Miller, all of that good

700
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,000
stuff.
It was actually kind of a bigger

701
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,440
thing in Europe.
And.

702
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:29,000
Funnily enough, the English.
You shocked me so.

703
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,520
Shocking.
There's actually a really

704
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,240
interesting correlation here.
So where the highest rates of

705
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:39,160
enclosures, where was also the
highest rates or were?

706
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,160
Sorry, my grammar's atrocious.
Were the highest instances of

707
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,520
witch hunts too?
Interesting?

708
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,160
There was a data point there,
like a correlation.

709
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,760
That sounds to me then like it's
an additional mechanism for

710
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,720
control.
Absolutely.

711
00:38:54,720 --> 00:39:00,640
And they really just didn't like
this like magic they almost

712
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,440
perceived women to have.
And it correlated with the idea

713
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,840
that magic kills industry.
So if you were, you know, at

714
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,920
whatever point developing drugs
or medicine and somebody had

715
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,720
like a a little herbal remedy
for that, it was, you know, seen

716
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,400
as this witchy magic.
It was bad for industry.

717
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,000
And so they didn't like it.
And it was also attached to this

718
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,160
idea of desire, intuition, all
of these traits that generally,

719
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,600
very generally speaking, women
possess, right?

720
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,680
So it was like to demonize that
this was all to do with like

721
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,120
plantation culture, which as an
Irish person, I know all about

722
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,920
that.
Because yeah, I'm sure you do.

723
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,400
Like the English tried to to
conquer my we land at least one

724
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,560
of their methods.
They used many.

725
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,400
Yep.
Over long periods of time.

726
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,640
So interestingly enough, during
that time.

727
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,920
Scotland and Ireland actually
didn't have any enclosures at

728
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,240
that point, and guess where
there was also no witch hunt?

729
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,000
I'm going to go with Scotland
and Ireland, yes.

730
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:20,760
And so that's probably where we
get the reputation for being

731
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,200
like a wee bit butchy.
I like it.

732
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,480
Because they weren't really able
to stamp it out historically

733
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,000
because, you know, they were
focusing on their, their little

734
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,720
enclosures.
I'm in England.

735
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:33,840
I.
Feel like you're a wee bit

736
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,560
witchy.
I feel a wee bit witchy.

737
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,760
In a good way in the.
Best way?

738
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,560
That's like the biggest
compliment you can.

739
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,920
Pay me thank.
You we got a wee bit of the

740
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,000
witchy.
So that's a lot of stuff.

741
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,320
I totally get that.
That is a lot of stuff.

742
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:56,960
But you know, to summarize it,
we really are at the mercy, I

743
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,480
guess, of historical practice.
Yes, development of economic

744
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,600
systems.
Now, this isn't like a a diss on

745
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,480
capitalism, which could be a
whole other episode, let me say,

746
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,360
but it's this idea that nobody
is winning, so why are we

747
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,400
fighting each other?
So what can we do about it?

748
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,400
Well, what can we do?
The great solution that is.

749
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:26,640
That is funny.
How do you how do you quantify

750
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,720
that or summarize it into
something that is like easy and

751
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:34,360
measurable?
Honestly, one place I think we

752
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:40,200
could start is with somatics.
OK, all right, tell me more.

753
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,440
That's like a major somatics
from what we've been talking.

754
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,840
You said somatic, not semantic
like somatic.

755
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,080
Like related to the body.
OK, yes.

756
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,800
So yeah, give us the sciency
soma.

757
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,120
What what does that word mean?
Just means body.

758
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,640
Yeah.
So off your body and you know

759
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,240
that I'm the slightly woo woo.
Person.

760
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,080
Of our little dynamic, a little
witchy.

761
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,680
Once again, a little.
Witchy yoga, all that teach

762
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,160
yoga.
But I do love the idea of like

763
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:14,120
somatic movement and we've sort
of been like sold this idea of

764
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,560
like, just sit quietly in your
mind.

765
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,880
And that's all great.
But we can't sit quietly in our

766
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,440
mind if our nervous system is
freaking the fuck out, right?

767
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,480
Like if we're living in that
sympathetic nervous state, our

768
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,400
digestion is messed up.
We're not sleeping, we're not

769
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,920
relaxing our muscles, especially
that SOAS muscle is tight

770
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,600
because we're just stuck in
fight and flight.

771
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,640
Yeah.
We don't do it like animals,

772
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:41,800
right?
Right.

773
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,480
Well, and I think there's pretty
good data on this, right.

774
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,080
So stress is actually quite
healthy if it's acute stress.

775
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,000
Yeah, but chronic stress is
incredibly unhealthy.

776
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,760
Yes, bad.
We don't want the second type.

777
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,880
No.
Like the wee bit of stress is a

778
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,320
motivator Good.
Yeah.

779
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,160
The stuff that lives in your
body.

780
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,840
Actually bad.
And I feel like most of us are

781
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,520
kind of in the state of chronic
stress all the time.

782
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,800
Because it's the world we live
in, right?

783
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,680
You're juggling a lot.
You're probably not sleeping

784
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,520
great or getting long enough to
sleep.

785
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,320
This was also back to the 16th
century, the time we're kind of

786
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,400
hustle culture and the idea that
the grind was like a badge of

787
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:26,040
honor emerged.
And that is so destructive to

788
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,760
our health and well-being.
Yeah, I feel like our constant

789
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,120
connectedness is also somewhat
destructive to our our

790
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,040
well-being.
So always being on our phones,

791
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,440
right?
This idea that comparison is the

792
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,280
thief of joy when we see other
people's highlight reels and

793
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,960
compare it to our actual real
life.

794
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,960
And then, you know, also, just
every time you look at the news

795
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,840
or social media, seeing the
absolute atrocities that are

796
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,440
being perpetuated around the
world, this is stressful too.

797
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,560
Yeah, it's, it's a lot to carry,
right?

798
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,400
We have access to so much stuff
and you need a pretty big bucket

799
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,160
to carry all of that in.
And where that comes into like

800
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:09,280
men, women, dating, all of that
stuff is self regulation, right?

801
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,200
How many of us have felt like
that rush of adrenaline on like

802
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,920
a dating app where you know,
you're trying to read between

803
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,880
the lines with basically a
complete stranger and they say

804
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:26,800
something and it it like set you
off or it sets a, a man off

805
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,680
which, you know, I recently had
a, a situation like this where I

806
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,560
was chatting.
It was very pleasant.

807
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,360
And then the person made like a
joke in scare quotes about

808
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,280
Ireland and Irish people and no
teeth.

809
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,160
And.
The the potato famine, which was

810
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:52,000
a genocide and then people from
connected it masterfully to

811
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,000
people in the site in America.
And I was kind of like, oh that.

812
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,040
I don't know if I like that.
And like the gates of hell

813
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,680
opened.
I shared the text with you

814
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:04,800
wrote.
Back I read it, the joke was the

815
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,120
joke quote, UN quote.
It was, I mean, it was one of

816
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,160
those where you're like, is that
a joke?

817
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,400
Cuz there actually is nothing
funny about it, even if you take

818
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,400
out the offensive bits.
Yeah.

819
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,680
And then he got incredibly
aggressive and I would say

820
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,040
abusive.
Yeah, and like, nobody, nobody

821
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,920
will ever love you.
Yeah, like, like it escalated

822
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,480
so.
Fast.

823
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,280
Yeah, that contempt was not
buried very far beneath the

824
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,800
surface, was it?
Yes.

825
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,160
And like a compassionate view of
that is like, Oh my God, like

826
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,200
you felt like you'd messed up,
right?

827
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:44,040
And instead of going, oh, I feel
a little weird, I might have

828
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,320
messed up.
You get that adrenaline and

829
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,560
you're like, right, But you know
what I mean?

830
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,560
Right, like more fun to unload
an abusive monologue rather than

831
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,480
take even 1 shred of
accountability for your actions

832
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,320
and words.
Or a we pause.

833
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,720
Like just take a we pause.
So not trying to be overly

834
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:07,200
idealistic, but I really do feel
like if, if we had more access

835
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,280
to techniques and self
regulation and you know, pausing

836
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,880
and being like, oh, what is
that?

837
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,200
And like, I'm guilty about
myself too, because, you know,

838
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,440
sometimes if you're chatting on
an app and somebody says

839
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,160
something, you get that same
rush, right?

840
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:27,120
Of like, I, I think for me it's
more cloaked in like rejection

841
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:32,720
sensitivity more so than like
the rage part, but it's that

842
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:34,960
same like reaction in your body,
right?

843
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,520
Where like adrenaline spikes and
you're like, I feel lighted

844
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,000
control.
And then you say something,

845
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,640
probably that if you thought
about it for a wee second, you

846
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,720
might not actually have said so
Then we're pitted against each

847
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:51,080
other, right?
And again, nobody is winning.

848
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,720
All right.
So somatic movement can help us

849
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,840
bridge that gap.
I'm really interested in this

850
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,560
because I feel like this is an
idea that's present in our

851
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,120
society, and definitely it's
present in, you know, the Mormon

852
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,440
culture, this idea of dualism.
So this idea that your mind and

853
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,240
your body are two separate
things, right?

854
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:13,640
Because your mind, maybe, you
know, call it the soul or

855
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,320
whatever, is something separate
and distinct that sort of lives

856
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,360
inside your head or your body.
You know, personally, as you

857
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,240
know, an atheist and a
materialist, I, I reject this

858
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:26,840
idea.
So I think your mind and your

859
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,760
body are, are the same thing.
But sometimes I feel like we get

860
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,600
a little out of joint.
So how can we use the somatic

861
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,680
movement to help regulate
ourselves better?

862
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,840
I think that's so accurate.
And so then you have these big

863
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,840
institutions like religion
solidifying that idea of

864
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,760
duality, right?
And so if you just pray or even

865
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,320
if you just sit and meditate,
it'll all be fine, right?

866
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,200
But again, that's ignoring
what's happening in our bodies.

867
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,640
And you know, what is it?
They call it an animal's

868
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,320
pediculation when they just like
shake it off.

869
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,040
If they like fight, then you'll
see just like a gazelle, like

870
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,560
jumping around like a lunatic.
But then they're like, fine.

871
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,680
And that's really it in simple
terms.

872
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:14,200
I I always tell people try this,
we experiment.

873
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,560
Get up in the morning, put on
your favorite song.

874
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,520
May need to be in headphones
depending on your living

875
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,920
situation.
If you live alone, go for it,

876
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:29,080
blast it and just jump and dance
around like get your heartbeat

877
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,040
going like shake your arm, shake
out your legs, jump like

878
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,200
actually jump and just you know,
be your full lunatic self for

879
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,120
like 4 minutes and then sit down
and try and do a wee bit of

880
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,560
meditation.
And I will I will put money on

881
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,360
it.
I will place a bet that if you

882
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,000
consistently do that for a week
or two, you will feel a

883
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,280
difference.
I love that idea.

884
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,520
Can I do it without the song?
I have some sensory issues and I

885
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,160
cannot have any noise whatsoever
in the first hour of being

886
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,320
awake.
That's fair and honesty that

887
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,840
affects a lot of people for for
different reasons.

888
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:08,600
Personal preference or even
neurodivergence can also be very

889
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,360
a verse to sign first thing like
for that like first star.

890
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,120
So yeah, you can just get up and
do it.

891
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,800
Just jump around your room.
Right, I'm going to jump around,

892
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,880
jump around.
My dog will be so confused.

893
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,200
Yeah, be like, what the hell is
she doing?

894
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,560
Maybe warn the people that you
live with as well before you

895
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,760
start doing this.
And I'm not suggesting that

896
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,760
while we're all in dating apps
that we jump around as we're

897
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,720
like talking to people, but just
an awareness of the noticing,

898
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:37,600
right?
Because when we're thinking of

899
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,240
the mind and the body as
separate things, we maybe don't

900
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,080
notice or can identify what that
feeling feels like in our body.

901
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,920
It just either feels like
rejection or aggression or but

902
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,960
it's like, oh, wait, no, there's
actually like a response in my

903
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,200
body.
This little thing is spiked, but

904
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,280
it will go dying.
Like, if I just focus on my

905
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,320
breath or, you know, do
something else or just flap my

906
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,760
arms around, you know, and like
I say, I'm not got this great

907
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,480
vision of people in their living
rooms, like, like doing this.

908
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,920
But, you know, part of the
solution, it's obviously not the

909
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,880
solution.
Obviously, the big solution is

910
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,360
societal restructuring.
Right, Yeah, that's a big lift.

911
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,800
Though I guess I'm more
interested in maybe not a

912
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,960
solution, but coping mechanisms
like what can we do?

913
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,160
Yeah, well, I mean, I think
somatic stuff is, is related to

914
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,600
like the coping mechanism.
But I, you know, we all have a

915
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,480
part in societal restructuring
too.

916
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,280
But it's kind of like horse and
cart syndrome, right?

917
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,320
Because in order for people to
feel safe, uncomfortable and

918
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,280
actually have trust between men
and women, particularly in the

919
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,960
sphere of midlife dating, yeah,
it's like, well, we need some

920
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,680
things first.
That's always where we go,

921
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,200
right?
Whereas if there was an

922
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,640
awareness of, you know, we have
a, we have a big collective

923
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,920
history here and sort of
separating people out.

924
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:09,320
So, you know, let's address that
together and and lean into that

925
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,440
trust and maybe start rejecting
some of those in our households.

926
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,080
Like that's where it could it
could start.

927
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,240
And you know, that little quote
that we read from the book, I

928
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:24,120
think it's worth mentioning
looking at this in sort of

929
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:29,240
current date industries, right?
So let's look at mom talk for a

930
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:30,920
minute.
I love love talk.

931
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,760
I love mom talk.
Super cool.

932
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,000
Taylor, Frankie, Paul.
Right?

933
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,200
Like.
I'm so excited for the upcoming

934
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,760
Bachelorette with Taylor Frankie
Paul, I.

935
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,360
Cannot wait, Oh my God.
Stay tuned.

936
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,360
I think we're going to do some
we recaps, yeah.

937
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,640
Definitely.
I love it 100%, but honestly, I

938
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,000
don't know if they, you know,
sat down one day and they're

939
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,480
like, let's reject the
patriarchal standards around

940
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,800
capitalism.
I don't know if that's how their

941
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,840
first WE meeting started.
I would guess not, but it's

942
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,960
actually like a a kind of giant
fuck you to these systems in

943
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,440
that here they are.
They're like these we young

944
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,840
moms, they're at home.
They're like we're kind of

945
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,560
bored.
We'd like to do something.

946
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,600
And so you know they get
matching track suits and start

947
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,720
doing we dances And neither all
like huge CE OS.

948
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,160
I love it.
Right.

949
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,320
And so that's actually the
embodiment of this text.

950
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,160
And I have to say that when I
did a discussion on this book in

951
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,320
class, I brought up the Secret
Lives of Mormon Wives.

952
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,960
And I was like, you know, if
they had been around in this

953
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,560
time where they're like, go to
the home, it's lesser.

954
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:41,080
They'd be like, Oh yeah, watch
me make a little cottage

955
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,760
industry out of that bitch.
You know, one of the most

956
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,520
fascinating things I find about
that show is watching their

957
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:53,320
husbands react to their success
because it's a double edged

958
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,600
sword.
Like, you can tell they enjoy

959
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,000
the money in some cases, they
enjoy the fame and their screen

960
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,960
time.
Yeah, but they're also very

961
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,920
perplexed with how to navigate
this sort of gender dynamic

962
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,200
where their wife is the one
making all the money.

963
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,400
Yeah, it and it's you can see
the discomfort.

964
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,720
Visceral discomfort.
And yet there's not really an

965
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:17,560
exploration of that, right?
They're just like.

966
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:19,520
Here we are.
Yeah.

967
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,000
I think they're unsure what
their feelings even are.

968
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,440
And I mean, I can relate to
that.

969
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:29,200
The first time I did therapy, I
remember sitting with this, this

970
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,800
male therapist, he's a PhD
clinical psychologist.

971
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:38,200
And he would ask me really tough
questions like, how did that

972
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,160
make you feel?
And I was like, I don't know,

973
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,240
bad.
I don't like it.

974
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,440
Like I didn't have the emotional
vocabulary to even express how I

975
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,520
felt.
And so he walked me through

976
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,880
feelings 101.
He's like, the first step is we

977
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,560
have to identify what we're
feeling.

978
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,240
All right.
And then eventually with my

979
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:01,160
current therapist, she asked me
tough questions, like, where do

980
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,480
you feel that in your body?
And I'm like, wait, what?

981
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,520
You're like, pardon.
My the brain part of my body,

982
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,880
she's.
Like no, get out of your head.

983
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,680
Is it in your tummy like?
Yeah, yeah.

984
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,320
So, so yeah, that's been fun.
So I can, I can have some

985
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,480
sympathy for, yeah, for the men
of Dad talk to some extent.

986
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,400
Yeah, hell yes.
Like, and I think that that is

987
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,560
going back to solutions oriented
thinking about that, right?

988
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,480
I'm defying it as that instead
of like, look at that fucking

989
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,480
asshole.
Sorry, I'm the sweary 1 today.

990
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:33,760
Yeah, it's all good.
It's just.

991
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,360
Like coming out, you're being
very civilized.

992
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:41,760
And I'm like, yeah, I I'm just,
you know, a degenerate clearly

993
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,800
and have been affected by all of
this feminist Marxist theory,

994
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,160
but.
Yeah, well, the the men of Dad

995
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,720
talk don't have that advantage.
They're all still to various

996
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,160
degrees, embedded in this Mormon
way of thinking.

997
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:59,160
Now some of them are active LDS,
others of them are ex Mormon,

998
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,240
but like we talked about a long
time ago, I feel like they

999
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:05,840
haven't necessarily examined
their role within the patriarchy

1000
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,920
or how this effects them, how
this affects the relationship

1001
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,640
with their wife.
Yeah, and how they like relate

1002
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,320
to women and the idea of the
womanly success.

1003
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:16,560
Right.
And they're hearing it from

1004
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,960
their church leaders too, which
is everything to do with this

1005
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,240
book that like, they're a little
frightening.

1006
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,880
Like, look at them.
They're making all this money.

1007
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,800
They're, you know, a lot of
them, particularly thinking

1008
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,000
about Whitney specifically and
her wee musical nigh and like

1009
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,560
very in her body.
Like, you know, her body is her

1010
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:38,920
way of making money as a dancer
right now.

1011
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,480
And their wee brands are just
like, I cannot compute.

1012
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,600
I cannot compute.
And I'm not saying then that you

1013
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,760
get this get out of jail free
card or oh, because, you know,

1014
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,280
let's talk about the male
loneliness epidemic.

1015
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,440
You know what?
Let's actually talk about that

1016
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,240
for a second because this is one
another thing I appreciate about

1017
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,440
dad talk.
The husbands and partners and

1018
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,040
baby daddies or whatever, at
least at least some of them.

1019
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,560
Yes, we are at least seeing
some.

1020
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,400
I don't know if we want to stay
healthy, but we're seeing some

1021
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,880
male friendships, which I feel
like this is a big theme in the

1022
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,520
male loneliness epidemic, right?
They have no friends.

1023
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,400
They're isolated.
They're looking for a woman to

1024
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,240
essentially outsource, you know,
finding a friend group and,

1025
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:28,200
like, regulating their social
calendar and their emotional

1026
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:29,640
landscape.
Right.

1027
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,880
So I do actually really love and
appreciate seeing the scenes

1028
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,440
where, like, these men are
hanging out, talking to each

1029
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,560
other and sometimes even talking
about their feelings.

1030
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,320
Whoa.
I know.

1031
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,440
Want to we side hug sometimes?
Too, right?

1032
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,200
Like a little physical
affection.

1033
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,480
Groundbreaking.
Now, that doesn't mean I'm going

1034
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,440
to give all of them a pass for
everything.

1035
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:56,680
Looking at you, Zach, but right.
But at least I appreciate that

1036
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,680
they are forming male
friendships.

1037
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,360
This is great.
It's it's huge, honestly.

1038
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,040
We shouldn't be in charge of
your social life.

1039
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,240
Have your own friends please.
And we're not your unpaid

1040
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:08,320
therapist, neither to listen to
all of your feelings.

1041
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,480
And again, this comes from the
structure, right?

1042
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:16,160
The the male loneliness
epidemic, which I do kind of

1043
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,800
feel is bullshit.
I feel like it comes not that it

1044
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,080
isn't true, it is true.
Sure, men are lonely, but women

1045
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,320
are lonely too.
And the data shows kind of at

1046
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,440
the same rates.
Right, 100%, it makes sense,

1047
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,240
right?
Again, we're not existing in

1048
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,560
isolation here.
So if one group's lonely, the

1049
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,720
other group is probably quite
lonely too.

1050
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,720
And I think it has to do with,
well, why?

1051
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,360
And you know, a lot of the
commentary is like, well, well,

1052
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,760
women, women have it like too
good now and they earn money and

1053
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,880
shit.
And so, you know, they're,

1054
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,120
they're just different.
They don't want to date us as

1055
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,320
much, which is true.
But why is that true?

1056
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:54,360
That's right.
What are you bringing to the

1057
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:55,440
table, Sir?
Right.

1058
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:59,560
Have we been hurt in some cases
physically, emotionally abused

1059
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,520
by partners in the past?
Do we want that again?

1060
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,520
Really.
Why would we put up with that if

1061
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:06,680
we don't have to?
Right.

1062
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,560
And hashtag not all men, of
course.

1063
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:16,640
Yeah, but what a lovely.
Man yes absolutely like I I

1064
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,960
don't know about you.
I have some friends and their

1065
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,760
husbands that I just adore the
both of them so much yes, and

1066
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,040
their husbands are like they
almost do this.

1067
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,920
Like by extension, I'm going to
I'm going to look out for your

1068
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,160
single friends like in an on
creepy, just really lovely.

1069
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,000
Yes, way.
Of course I'm going to not

1070
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,640
mention his name, but we do have
a friend in common.

1071
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,360
We're really good friends with
his wife but I feel like he's

1072
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,360
adopted both of us and he's so
lovely.

1073
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,400
Yes.
And and that that happens.

1074
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,040
I have another friend again not
to identify them, but he's

1075
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,720
German so she'll know who it is.
But he is just like, you know, I

1076
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,800
know he would like get a horse
with a spear for me if he had

1077
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,280
to, you know what I mean?
And it's just like this kind of,

1078
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,720
but not in like a gross way,
like in just this nice sort of

1079
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,480
male energy protective mode.
So, you know, we're, we're,

1080
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:15,000
we're not saying everybody here,
but it's just this idea of the

1081
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,600
male loneliness epidemic being
the fault of women is dragging

1082
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,840
us into this argument that
clearly goes back centuries.

1083
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,160
And that's asking the wrong
question.

1084
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,040
Right.
It's pitting each other.

1085
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,920
We're pitting ourselves against
each other.

1086
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:29,680
How do I say that correctly?
I don't know.

1087
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,160
Men are being pitted against
women, Women are being pitted

1088
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,520
against men.
And just to go back to the

1089
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,680
beginning, we're all losing.
Nobody's winning here, right?

1090
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,440
Yeah.
Nobody's winning.

1091
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,120
That's that's our little message
for today.

1092
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,360
Nobody's winning.
Let's ask the right questions.

1093
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:49,440
Let's not make this like just a
horrible experience for

1094
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,280
everybody because nobody, he's
winning.

1095
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,560
Yeah, so sorry, sorry.
Go ahead.

1096
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,400
No, we're we've got.
So much to say.

1097
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,360
We have a lot, but we're kind of
running long.

1098
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,720
So let's continue this
conversation.

1099
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,720
I would say in a future episode
or episodes, let's continue this

1100
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,160
this thread as we move forward.
It's it's a big.

1101
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,080
Thread.
It is a big thread.

1102
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:15,040
It's a dangly thread, yes.
I do have one question for you

1103
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,520
though, before we finish.
Yeah, looking at all of this and

1104
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,760
again, you know, we, we hear a
lot of negative talk about and

1105
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,120
from women and women from men.
Did I say that right?

1106
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:30,320
You know what I mean?
Like, given all the changes,

1107
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,920
given what we know, like what do
you look for in a man right now?

1108
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:35,880
Like what?
What is hot to you?

1109
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,320
Not not just like hot as in
physical features, but like what

1110
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:43,320
is like a Oh yeah.
Well, I mean, that's a that's a

1111
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:47,440
complicated question and you
know, desire is a complicated

1112
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,080
topic, right.
And I would say that I would I

1113
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,360
love some healthy masculine
energy, right?

1114
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,400
Like I am not like some of these
alpha males like to say, you

1115
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,120
know, on TikTok.
I am not looking to make a man

1116
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,760
into a woman, right, yes, if I
wanted to date a woman, you

1117
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:07,480
know, you're right here in front
of me like this.

1118
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:13,040
You are perfection it yes, back
at so yeah, you know, I like

1119
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:14,880
that.
Like you said, healthy

1120
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,760
protection, effectiveness.
I like that caretaking right in

1121
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,680
in a very, you know, sweet way.
Yeah.

1122
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:25,280
Yeah.
I like that masculine energy.

1123
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,200
I even like some aggression.
Yeah, to be honest.

1124
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:29,600
Yeah.
Channeled correctly.

1125
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,640
But like in a yes, like a
healthy manner.

1126
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,760
And I love that you say that
because yeah, it blows all of

1127
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,240
that negative like alpha male
energy out of the water in terms

1128
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:42,120
of like, you know, those bitches
don't want a man.

1129
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:47,880
It's like we actually do.
But like a self regulated nice,

1130
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,600
non hostile, like there's a
difference between aggression

1131
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,200
and hostility, right?
It's back to that healthy

1132
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,520
stress, non healthy stress like
that exists.

1133
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:01,160
But contrary to common opinion,
we actually really do like that

1134
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:05,600
masculine masculine energy,
which is we still crave the D.

1135
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,280
Yeah, please.
Yeah, Give it to me.

1136
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,120
Give me all the testosterone.
I love it.

1137
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:11,920
Just, you know, channel it
appropriately.

1138
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,840
Yeah, just just make it nice.
Yeah.

1139
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,880
Any final thoughts, Claire?
You know, I just, I just agree

1140
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,200
with you in terms of what I'm
looking for in a male partner.

1141
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:24,920
It's just, you know, give me
that lovely protective energy

1142
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:29,120
that, you know, then you can
feel all feminine like.

1143
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,120
Oh, yeah, exactly.
It's hard to put it to words.

1144
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,480
I find that noises help.
So I want to feel woo.

1145
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,240
That's my badger hile.
Yeah, let's bring.

1146
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:39,880
It through a scream.
There we go.

1147
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,080
I love it.
All right, well, we're going to

1148
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,520
wrap it up for now.
Next time stay tuned.

1149
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,560
We'll be back to your regularly
scheduled dating profile

1150
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:51,720
reviews.
Salty bites salty.

1151
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,080
Bites.
All right, friends, take care.

1152
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:55,320
Stay warm.
We'll see you later.

1153
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:56,360
See ya.
Bye.